D&D 5E Not liking Bounded Accuracy

You don't need to take a level of rogue. In 5E if you want to say, "Hey, Mr. DM, I've been navigating since I was a kid, can I have double proficiency in navigation?" The DM either says yes or no. Backgrounds are open-ended and there is plenty of room to do things like that in 5E.

Or, instead of double proficiency, a character with the Sailor background can simply be given Advantage on such rolls.

The Advantage mechanic can come in very handy when dealing with what a PC should be "skilled" at, based on the character's class and background. As per the DM's judgement, of course.
 

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The thing I like most with BA compared to 4e is that now an increase in a modifier increases the probability of succeeding on a task. In 4e my impression was that I needed to invest a lot of feats, items etc just to keep the probability where it was before. The chance of success became mostly a question of where in level span I was.

For those with players who dislike BA: make a table comparing skill modifier, DC and the number you actually need to roll on the d20 at various levels in 5e and relevant previous editions. A lower number needed on the d20 is the real sign of progress.

4E works quite well if you remove +1/2 bonus per level to everything.
when you choose monsters from MM just give them -1/2 per level round down penalty to all d20 rolls and defenses.
 

So there is no reasonable way a PC navigator can be skilled at navigation? Or more skilled the the team wizard? If my background is that I'm a 30-year old who has been navigating a boat for years (and that was my last PC's background...), it makes sense that a random wizard in the party will be better at it than I am at first level (actually they'd have been tied as I had a +1 Int just for this purpose and that was the highest int in the party)? The game seems to require that PCs be not very good at much of anything other than their class. I was planning on playing someone who was a solid (if not extraordinary) navigator and only recently (like a week ago) become a mildly competent (level 1) fighter. 5e doesn't really support that. I was going to take a level in rogue for expertise (not clear it would apply to navigator's tools, but that's another issue), but we weren't using multi-classing. And I don't know why I _should_ need to take a level in rogue to be a better navigator than a random PC wizard.

And as an engineer, let me tell you that being smart is rarely a substitute for actual training. Anyone who has significant training in navigation is going to be able to actually use the tools of the trade. Someone without said training is going to be a disaster.

Sure, like I said in my previous reply, make it a background feature. Have your background be "Navigator" and have something special that no one else can get so that your ability to navigate is not just a number. This is what backgrounds are for.

I don't think the game should be designed around assuming that PCs will have mastered skills at 1st level. That is the realm of NPCs. But if that is what you really want, there are backgrounds for you.
 

Or, instead of double proficiency, a character with the Sailor background can simply be given Advantage on such rolls.

The Advantage mechanic can come in very handy when dealing with what a PC should be "skilled" at, based on the character's class and background. As per the DM's judgement, of course.

Yeah, there is a mechanic already built into the game for that called Inspiration.

It is on pg 125.
 

I adore it. The 3.x/4E paradigm of zero to superhero in 3 months just got old for me. The shallower graduation suits me just fine.

Seriously. It's one of the major reasons campaigns ended so early. in 1e/2e you might not get to high level because it simply took so long to get there, but in 3e/4e it's because of just how ridiculous the power curve was.
 

The thing I like most with BA compared to 4e is that now an increase in a modifier increases the probability of succeeding on a task. In 4e my impression was that I needed to invest a lot of feats, items etc just to keep the probability where it was before. The chance of success became mostly a question of where in level span I was.
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This. When I played 3e (for the brief period), it felt like if I didn't constantly spend progression bonuses into a particular skill, there was no sense in ever trying it. That sat really wrong with me, a guy whose preferred edition is 1e where anyone can at least attempt anything. I'd rather have a slim chance at succeeding, rather than a "Don't bother, it's a DC 25/35/45 and there's no way you can do it." I like how BA in 5e went back to that.
 

If you absolutely love bounded accuracy, why? What do you feel it adds to the game? Do you like not needing gamist things to allow low level threats to remain a threat (like minion rules)?

I just finished up a Pathfinder game. Skull & Shackles, the pirate campaign. Near the end there were a lot of fights with mooks. These were meant to be small little threats that added up to be a real challenge. But the way the "math" of the system's CR mechanic worked, they had to be 3-4 levels behind the players. Which meant their AC and to hit numbers dropped substantially. They couldn't hit 75% of the time - especially the tank - but because they were still level 9, they had lots and lots of hitpoints. So they stuck around the battlefield doing nothing for a long time.
In contrast, the big bad was +4 levels about the party to survive longer. So they couldn't hit 75% of the time, and he could only really miss on a 2 or 3.

In 4e the fight would have been different. The mooks would have been minions. Which means one hitpoint but they're this strange gamist concept of a level 12-14 pirate that can only take a single hit. They're the elite crew of the pirate king and have great defenses, but somehow less life than a level 1 kobold. And they still really only work at that one level band.

If adapting to 5e, that fight (and whole campaign) could have been much easier. I wouldn't have needed to put the party against classed monsters just because the desired monster was a couple levels too low. The mooks could be CR 5 creatures and still have a chance to hit. The boss could be much higher level but the PCs would still have hit a non-annoying amount of times.

Prior to the example S&S campaign referenced above, my group did another AP where the mook math was less obvious and there were far more at-level monsters at play. Because they were always fighting creatures at their level, they bonuses didn't really matter because the bonuses they got and the bonuses the enemies got advanced at the same rate.
This was really evident in 4e, with it's tighter math. All the progression was really a Red Queen's Race. You effectively got a +1 to everything every level, between proficiency, stat bumps, magic gear, and the expected Expertise feat. Which was exactly the same rate of progression as the monsters, who got their level as a bonus. So, really, you never got better at hitting. You could strip away all the bonuses to attack and defenses and keep the same static numbers at level 1 and the game would functionally play the same.
Which, really, is what they did with 5e....

5e is about your characters being able to do cooler things, take more hits, and deal more damage without the numbers going up for no reason than the numbers going up.

There's a few ways to emphasis growing power in the characters. First, have them fight a really badass monster. That makes you feel cool. Then, have the NPCs of the world react to the deed. Make the players feel like big goddamn heroes, no matter what the character sheet says.
It's also possible to take a monster that hurt the PCs and almost wiped them at first or second level and throw 3 or 4 of them at the PCs now. (Depending on level.)
 

Thankfully, the game tells us that if something isn't working the way we want, then we get to tweak it. Almost as though the game wants us to make it our own!
 

I'm conflicted. At first I really loved the idea of bounded accuracy. However, they bounded it too tightly. At this point, as noted there isn't all that much difference between 1 and 20. Also, you necessarily end up with armors that have almost nothing to differentiate them except for fluff. The armor class difference between light, medium and heavy armors is practically nothing. Who cares if you get 12 +5 for dex, 15 +2 for dex, or 17 +0 for dex. You're still at 17.

3e was too excessive with bonuses, but in my opinion 5e is too weak with them. A middle ground would have been nice I think.
 

Or, instead of double proficiency, a character with the Sailor background can simply be given Advantage on such rolls.

The Advantage mechanic can come in very handy when dealing with what a PC should be "skilled" at, based on the character's class and background. As per the DM's judgement, of course.

And if you do a passive check, advantage is +5, so actually 15+modifier. So a sailor is able to do sailor things all the time and very well.
 

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