D&D (2024) Not loving weapon mastery with beginners

[Sulicius]

Except I, who started the thread, did cite specific examples, and I have consistently been very supportive of the 2024 updates and think they are an overall improvement. Try again.

It is possible to like something and still criticize aspects of it. The world is not black and white. In fact, as I also emphasized in my OP, I like masteries for experienced players.

It’s not quite as simple as just “opt out of them” for some campaigns, as we use DDB. However, if they were official options I could toggle them on or off.

I find it so odd how you are contested in your experience. It's not hard to understand that weapon masteries add another complexity to the game that can bog down further for players.

A lot of people on this thread seem to feel like just because there is complexity in the game, there can always be more of it as long as you look at the most complex parts of the game.

Weapon Masteries are my least favorite addition to the game, along with 1st level feats.

 

[Horwath]

Topple requires the DM to roll a d20, surely this can't take long

here is a Topple idea:
when you beat your target AC by 5 or more, you can knock it prone. No save. No extra rolls.

 

[GreyLord]

I love the concept of modularity, but I don’t think it’s really ever been a feasible goal.

May I introduce you to something called BECMI. Basic, Expert, Companion, Master...and Immortals...but Immortals doesn't really fit into this conversation. Basic introduced you to...well...the basics of the game. Expert introduced more rules. Companion REALLY introduced some massive new rules...and than Master introduced...yep...you got it...more rules.

5e (2014) sort of had this as well. At the bottom of the stack you had the Starter Sets. Then...you had the Basic Rules (free to download). A little bit more complex (more options) but not as many levels offered was the Essentials Kit. And then, finally, you had the full game in the Core rule books.

Introducing things step by step in a modular manner (thus...your modularity) where you could take the next step or keep it as simple as you wanted is actually a VERY feasible goal that's been done several times in the past, many times very successfully.

I don't know whether 5e (2024) will get this or not yet...it's too early to say...but I am hoping it starts it off with a bang when the new Starter set (introductory set) comes out next year)!

Since D&D began, for example, fighters attack, and attack, and attack. And yes, that has always been fun because of the situation/ adventure you're in. Hitting and hoping you drop your enemy, missing and hoping they don't hit you back, that has always been the ebb and flow of combat. Is that "boring" to you? Fluff it however you want to make it more engaging and exciting--that is the narrative and story-telling aspect of the game.

If you are focusing on "character abilities" (which, hey, are on the character sheet generally... ), you are worried more about the "cool things you can do" than the adventure. As I said, I know a lot of players that that is what makes the game more fun for them. They don't often care as much about the story or adventure, just whether or not they can perfom a mega-uber-awesome ability or something. They care more about leveling up to get the next "cool feature" than the story. And yeah, a lot of time they are planning out their character build for the fun stuff they get from choice A over choice B.

If that is the fun part for you, have at it!! That just ins't the fun part for me. I'm more interested in the story I craft with my friends. To each, their own.

About the middle of this thread, a while back...I realized something awful. I really like to play Warlocks in 5e. Probably too much.

 

[Horwath]

Since D&D began, for example, fighters attack, and attack, and attack. And yes, that has always been fun because of the situation/ adventure you're in. Hitting and hoping you drop your enemy, missing and hoping they don't hit you back, that has always been the ebb and flow of combat. Is that "boring" to you? Fluff it however you want to make it more engaging and exciting--that is the narrative and story-telling aspect of the game.

If you are focusing on "character abilities" (which, hey, are on the character sheet generally... ), you are worried more about the "cool things you can do" than the adventure. As I said, I know a lot of players that that is what makes the game more fun for them. They don't often care as much about the story or adventure, just whether or not they can perfom a mega-uber-awesome ability or something. They care more about leveling up to get the next "cool feature" than the story. And yeah, a lot of time they are planning out their character build for the fun stuff they get from choice A over choice B.

If that is the fun part for you, have at it!! That just ins't the fun part for me. I'm more interested in the story I craft with my friends. To each, their own.

why do you think that those 2 things are mutually exclusive?

why cant people have fun in roleplay and story of the game and still want complicated and more immersive combat?

It sure benefits the story of your character and immersion when you can bash your opponent with your shield, send him flying 15ft and dropping prone while dealing some damage instead of; "12 damage", next attack; "13 damage", next; miss...

 

[ECMO3]

Even in this thread several people have asked which specific weapon mastery properties were slowing things down, but no answer was given.

Slow and Sap are the two causing the most difficulties in the games I am in, although all of the masteries have slowed down play to a degree I would call significant.

Slow and Sap are very difficult to keep track of in large battles, especially when the battle is fluid you have multiple people applying them.

 

[ECMO3]

Graze and Vex are boring but straightforward, reliable increases in damage.

Vex can be difficult to keep track of one turn to the next, not as difficult as SAP. Graze is the easiest of them.

Cleave does absolutely nothing 90%+ of the time, but occasionally gives you an awesome moment of getting to attack two enemies at once which is always interesting when it comes up

I see this one used all the time with Green Flame Blade and Truestrike .... like every time there are two enemies standing side-by-side. We have a PC with a Greataxe built specifically around this.

 

[Horwath]

Vex can be difficult to keep track of one turn to the next, not as difficult as SAP. Graze is the easiest of them.

Vex is players job to track, as a DM I would avoid Vex if having large group of mooks to use.
Graze could be applied to all weapons. Boring as hell, but it's reliable and asks for no tracking.

I see this one used all the time with Green Flame Blade and Truestrike .... like every time there are two enemies standing side-by-side. We have a PC with a Greataxe built specifically around this.

but still, Cleave is a no-brainer, just make an attack, that just like saying Extra attack feature is complicated.

 

[ECMO3]

Vex is players job to track, as a DM I would avoid Vex if having large group of mooks to use.

That doesn't make it easy for them to track or that they do it effectively, especially if they are on their cellphone finding a meme for whatever they did last turn.

but still, Cleave is a no-brainer, just make an attack, that just like saying Extra attack feature is complicated.

Cleave the problem is using different attack modifiers and the difference in damage. Used with Truestrike-AB for example at 3rd level with an 18 Charisma and 13 Strength - you are getting 1 attack with +6 to hit, +8 to damage and a 2nd attack with a +3 attack and no damage bonus.

When used with Green flame Blade it gets even wonkier - your attack is getting a +3 attack, with a +5 damage, the second target is taking 4 from the green flame blade and then you are getting a second attack on him with a +3 attack and no damage bonus.

Then there is often either Divine Smite or worse Wrathful Smite thrown on top of that.

That is a lot of numbers to throw around and keep track of and those are the two most common uses of Cleave I am seeing in play and this is only level 3! It would be easier if the weapon being used was a Pact of the Blade Weapon, but it isn't.

 

[Horwath]

That doesn't make it easy for them to track or that they do it effectively, especially if they are on their cellphone finding a meme for whatever they did last turn.

that is not a game problem, that is people problem.

Cleave the problem is using different attack modifiers and the difference in damage. Used with Truestrike-AB for example at 3rd level with an 18 Charisma and 13 Strength - you are getting 1 attack with +6 to hit, +8 to damage and a 2nd attack with a +1 to hit and no damage bonus.

When used with Green flame Blade it gets even wonkier - your attack is getting a +3 attack, with a +5 damage, the second target is taking 4 from the green flame blade and then you are getting a second attack on him with a +1 to hit and no damage bonus.

Then there is often either Divine Smite or worse Wrathful Smite thrown on top of that.

That is a lot of numbers to throw around and keep track of and those are the two most common uses of Cleave I am seeing in play.

well, you are willingly making your life difficult with using true strike with cleave. Either house rule it that is basically same attack and should use same modifiers or try to avoid situations like this if someone cant keep track of it.

 

[Valetudo]

Maybe they should have started with the starter set. I think it's coming some time next year. I never use them but they seem good for new players and dms. I had alot of new players in my last campaign and eventually they started learning their pcs. I think if you watch them learn and master new stuff instead of worrying about how long combat lasts.