Now is the season of our discontent?

[Psion]

It is so obvious, I don't know how to say it, but it is normal to switch game systems once in a while.

And back in the day millions did. Because almost everyone started on some form of D&D

Some groups never change games. Some don't even change editions.

FWIW, I'm not playing D&D right now, nor do I have much interest in the near future. That doesn't mean I'm "done" or I feel like I've "grown beyond" D&D or it's a bad system. Indeed, I used to swap up games much more frequently. I think it's pretty impressive that the D&D+ third party D20 combo kept my interest for MUCH longer than older editions did at a stint.

I'm sure I'll be back.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Frankly, I'm surprised that someone else is surprised at such a thing.

Why would such a thing surprise you? It doesn't seem odd to never ever get tired of doing the same thing over and over year after year? I mean, come on. I can see being a creature of habit. I'm one myself. But I'd be frankly surprised if anyone really played for 15 years straight, every other week, without a break, period, let alone to play another game. The odds are against it, especially as people get older and responsibilities pile up. Nobody ever left the game? The game was never called? Nobody was ever interested in playing anything else ever? I don't mean to be insulting, honestly (EDIT: and I want to emphasize I'm asking all this respectfully; no put-down intended or implied), but on the face of it, it's hard to believe. Yes, I agree overplaying is likely a big source of burnout. Now, if you're saying that you have played every two weeks, more or less, over the course of 15 years, with some breaks here and there, then I can see the possibility. But let me ask this - do you ever get together with any of the group outside of your scheduled D&D session to do something besides play D&D? I could see that helping to switch things up.

 

[RFisher]

Oddly enough, I find it easier to create a campaign with less to work with. D&D has so many books that, together, they create a whole. When you start to take away pieces here and there you quickly find you're playing Jenga with the system. I prefer just some basics and to build up my own creation.

I have felt exactly the same way. & I didn't have to look beyond the core books to feel that way.

Yet everytime I say so, it seems some people tell me that I couldn't have felt that. ()

I think there are two ways people often misunderstand me--& not just when it comes to RPGs. I find it much easier & preferrable to build up from a small base than to edit down a big system. & when I do build up, I'm not aiming at building a big system.

 

[Arnwyn]

Why would such a thing surprise you? It doesn't seem odd to never ever get tired of doing the same thing over and over year after year?

Yes, if it was the "same thing" - which it's not. You said:

I'd be surprised if any group can go an extended time playing only one RPG without getting burned out.

One RPG is more than enough for us. Doing the same thing over and over would be boring - but we certainly don't equate "one RPG" with "doing the same thing over and over". The things we do in D&D vary wildly (we can thank realm management and mass combat which helps contribute to that, as just one quick example).

Nobody was ever interested in playing anything else ever? I don't mean to be insulting, honestly (EDIT: and I want to emphasize I'm asking all this respectfully; no put-down intended or implied), but on the face of it, it's hard to believe.

Heh, believe me, these guys wouldn't change if their lives depended on it. They won't even accept a different DM (they refuse to DM themselves - as much as I've asked many times over the years) much less accept an entirely new game system. They like fantasy and D&D has worked extremely well for them for 15+ years, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it - why change to something else to do the same thing when what they've been using has worked perfectly well? That'd be weird.

So we wouldn't play a different game - like I said in a different thread (or maybe even this one) - we'd go golfing or skiing instead of trying a different RPG.

Yes, I agree overplaying is likely a big source of burnout. Now, if you're saying that you have played every two weeks, more or less, over the course of 15 years, with some breaks here and there, then I can see the possibility.

Yep, that's what I'm saying (I'm not one for extremes, so IMO "more or less" is an obvious inclusion that hardly needs to be said). (But, what's "a break"? A few weeks or so, or the extremely rare month when someone's on a cruise or something? Sure, of course that happens. But that has little to do with my previous post and expression of surprise, which was based on the "only one RPG" comment.)

But let me ask this - do you ever get together with any of the group outside of your scheduled D&D session to do something besides play D&D? I could see that helping to switch things up.

Oh, of course (the aforementioned skiing and golfing, for example). But again, that has little to do with the "only one RPG" statement, though. Maybe I'm just confused about your point? [no sarcasm! real confusion]

 

[masshysteria]

What is it about 3.5 that pushed you away?

For me it isn't the system, it is just the fact that we played it too much. Nothing was new and adventurous anymore. We had our standard operating procedures, we knew monster weaknesses, and knew exactly how to optimize characters.

In other words we sucked the life out of the game and were burnt out. Fortunately, we recognized this fact and decided for the summer to play a bunch of different systems and indie games as one-shots. So far has it been a lot of fun and I'm actually looking forward to the fall when we restart our D&D game.

Our summer list includes:
Dogs in the Vineyard
Alternity Dark Matter
Spirit of the Century
Dread
Star Wars
Gamma World
and whatever else piques our interest

 

[Henry]

Even though I've recently left D&D and made the switch to GURPS, I still check this board because of the great community and wonderful ideas that aren't necessarily tied to the d20 system. So as I pop in occasionally, I've noticed that I don't seem to be alone in my decision to leave d20 behind.

This phenomenon has been well-known for years, and is why Ryan Dancey tried to influence the creation of the OGL in the way he did.

Quite a few gamers "leave D&D" for another game system - it's human nature to want something different after playing the same thing for a while. What was observed was that of the gamers leaving D&D, most of them eventually ALWAYS came back to D&D. They stray into GURPS, or RIFTS, or Burning Wheel, or an online MMORPG, or whatnot - but always return full circle to D&D, almsot never to any other game.

Therefore, Dancey and the people in charge at WotC at the time wanted to reduce the amount of time that people made that big circle back to D&D, and hence why their wish that the OGL covered not just d20, but other game systems as well. Most familiarity increases not only the "jumping ship" speed but the "return" speed. I know I personally have played a half dozen different RPG's over the years, only to return to D&D every time.

It's not usually a case of "being pushed away", as "wanting to try something new."

 

[Henry]

It's not usually a case of "being pushed away", as "wanting to try something new."

For me, right now I have a desire to "push" into the new Star Wars, or Warhammer, or something similar, myself - whatever I can get the group interested in as a diversion.

 

[Gothmog]

For me, it was rules bloat, but it was front-end rules bloat inherent to the 3E system. Even before all the supplement books came out for 3E, the number of fiddly bits in the game increased exponentially from 2E to 3E, and creating characters, statting up adversaries, making new monsters, and prepping the game became a LOT more work. At first, I loved the new options available- feats, skill ranks, PrCs, etc. But once a few levels went by and we started worrying about feat chains, PrC requirements, skill ranks and synergy bonuses, etc- my group and I realized how easy it was to get bogged down completely with optimazation and the unnecessarily complexities of the system. This also lead to a degree of metagame thinking we didn't like- to be truly effective, you almost have to plan 3 to 6 levels ahead what feats and skills you want to take, before the events that shape the character's development even take place. We never even got into the Complete books or supplements- the rules bloat before then was already nightmarish.

3E also has a strong "rules mastery" component that is a subgame itself- and many of my players have no desire to spend the time necessary to learn how to optimize characters and make them effective in the rules. This is also IME a big hurdle for new players- they don't know the rules, synergies, and feat chains necessary to make a competent character, and they often get frustrated that other characters are much more effective than them, even though they are the same level.

Finally 3E, more than any other game out there, has an escalating arms race me and my group just didn't like. Changing the assumed magic or power level of the game screws with all sorts of other aspects of the game, and for years I tried to make a grittier, lower magic game. Finally, I realized you can't pound a square peg into a round hole, no matter how hard you tried, and I gave up on running 3E/D20.

I agree with the poster above that said that 3E/D20 is a game that is becoming more fun for players, but less fun for DMs. I'll still play the occasional 3E/D20 game, but I won't ever run it again- its not my system of choice by any means.

My time now is much more limited, especially since I have a full-time tenure track teaching and research position at my university now. My group started looking for a system that gave us the ability to customize character abilities while not getting mired down in complexities, had a simple fast-moving system, and that could handle large combats quickly and easily. D20 can't do any of this- its not inherently designed for it. True 20 is great- it goes a long way towards fixing the problems we have, and Warhammer FRP2 is awesome- its very simple but highy customizable as well. But Savage Worlds is our system of choice now- it seems like it was customed-designed for my group. I've run everything from super-heroic to gritty games with SW, and its worked perfectly with minimal bookkeeping and complexity, but with just as many character options as D20. Plus, its a breeze to stat NPCs and creatures out. I've also found as I have fewer rules to worry about, I tend to focus on the plot and making interesting characters and locations- and my love of gaming has returned. For us, a less clunky ruleset really is more fun.