OFFICAL ERRATA: Hit points *DO NOT* change in polymorph

[Black Knight Irios]

I go for no HP change at all in any case, regardless of feat changes, CON changes and other factors.
That is what I did the whole time.

 

[da chicken]

Hey, I agree that that's how it ought to be played. The problem is that the language is ambiguous. Both interpretations work with the RAW.

 

[Scion]

Which dictionary is this?

'The american century dictionary: orginated by the oxford university press'

However, technically this isn't errata to the polymorph spell, just to the polymorph special ability. Make of that what you will.

Told you jgsugden

 

[Scion]

Hypothetically? An elf wizard with 1 Con has 1 hp per level: maximum 4 from hit dice -5 Constitution penalty is still 1/level. If Improved Toughness gave "+2 Con but only for hp", he would still have 1 hp/level: maximum 4 from hit dice -4 Constitution penalty. If it was +1 hp/level, he would have 2 hp/level. Granted, it's an extreme case which would hardly ever come up in play.

He gets a max of 1hp/hd, not a max of 1hp/hd + feats. Unless I missed it somewhere I still treat it that if your con drops too low the feat only gives you one extra hp/hd which can be drowned out by the con loss. Might not be exactly correct though.

 

[jgsugden]

Regarding 'effect' vs 'spell':

The DMG section (in the actual DMG, part of the portion that remains after the errata) notes that the polymorph effect is defined by the polymorph spell. The clarification text in the ability thus is attributed to the intended meaning of the vague language in the spell. No room for argument.

Regarding whether the effect of constitution is a part of the term hit points:

'Hit points' is a *game defined term*. Look it up. It is found on page 309 of the PHB. It notes that hit points are changed by a change in constitution. Thus, 'hit points' as a game defined term includes the effect of constitution on the total. Hit points = rolled up die results + con modifer + feat effects (or other modifiers).

When you say that the character retains his hit points, you're saying that the hit points (which incorporates your starting constitution score) are not exchanged for a new value.

 

[Particle_Man]

There is a precedent for hit points being absolutely independent of the Con score of a creature.

A wizard/sorceror's familiar has half of the wizard/sorceror's hit points, rounded down. The familiar could have a con of 1 or 20, but that won't change the familiar's hit points.

Thus, it seems quite possible that a polymorph spell also does not change hit points, regardless of whether the con of the new form is 1 or 20.

 

[Hardhead]

I think the errata is pretty crystal clear about HPs and Polymorph. They don't change.

 

[Count Arioch the 28t]

Well, I'm glad they dropped the stupid rule, it sucked.

 

[Caliban]

Regarding 'effect' vs 'spell':

The DMG section (in the actual DMG, part of the portion that remains after the errata) notes that the polymorph effect is defined by the polymorph spell. The clarification text in the ability thus is attributed to the intended meaning of the vague language in the spell. No room for argument.

No room for argument?

I thought you'd been on these boards for awhile....

 

[reiella]

No, that argument does not work. Hit points are a game defined term. When it says they do not change, it means that hit points do not change. Your interpretation would work if it said hit *dice* do not change, but it says hit points do not change.

Disturbing and confusing potential there (in my opinion, at least) of a primary statistic being really implied (as opposed to explicitly stated) to have it's modifier nullified for a given secondary statistic, without the primary being nullified due to circumstance (such as being undead).

The potential for a nice Con 24 critter to have only 4 hitpoints is amusing however .

I don't play with psionics but from a quick look over the psychofeedback power and its reference to 'A manifester could simultaneously boost two scores, or all three...' I'd assume that the scores also raise to match the new modifiers... seems kinda of a clunky way to do it, but then you realise using this power to raise your str mod from +3 to +4 costs the same whether you str was 16 or 17.. and produces the same benefit. Fair enough.

Actually, there's a slight difference, although if you're assuming it as an unnamed bonus, it's a pretty moot difference. However, bonuses to your stat modifiers doesn't increase your resilency against ability damage (Rather, how much you can take) such as the rather common potential for a psion to take Ability Damage from Psionic Combat.

Edit: otherwise the rule would have read: your original hit points from class levels or hit dice do not change. But it doesn't say that.

Actually, if it read as HitDice, it would still "ignore" bonus hitpoints from Con, but not those from Improved Toughness. The Con hp bonus applies to the HitDie roll.

My person opinion on this whole thing is... it would really just be alot cleaner to set up Polymorph not to even change Con if it is needed to be removed. Otherwise, it really only helps the wizard make fort saves and concentrate...