OGC Speak Language alternates?

[Nifft]

In my proposed rules (above), "native" speakers get 3 ranks free, and speaking like a native only costs 3 ranks. Native isn't perfect... try most Americans

At level 4, you sound cultured in that language.

At level 5, you have the expressive vocabulary of Shakespeare (wit not included).

That's how I deal with granularity.

-- N

 

[Sylvaroth]

I am doing athread over at WotC discussing a Speak Language variant that uses ranks displaying how well you can use this language.

Btw. this thread is exactly what I was looking for

This is my suggestion:

SPEAK LANGUAGE
[Intelligence; trained only; class skill for Bard and Rogue]
The Speak Language skill does not work like a standard skill.

• You start at 1st level knowing one or two languages according to your race (3 ranks) plus an additional number of languages equal to your Intelligence bonus (2 ranks). (See PHB, Chapter 2: Races.)

Check: If a character has spent at least a month around beings that made heavy use of a language he may make a so called Learn Check which is a Wisdom check against the language’s DC dependend on how complex that language is.

DC..............Language
0-5............Very simple structured languages
10..............Common languages with medium complexity
20..............Common languages with high complexity
25-30.........Ancient, rare, and/or higly complex languages

And maybe a modifier for languages from the same or similar families.

If the check succeeds the character is considered to have picked up and learned enough to being able to understand verbal represenatations expressed in that language and expressing himself well enough to conduct an unexceptional conversation, but he can neither read nor write in that language. A successful Learn Check equals one rank in that language.
You can buy up to 4 ranks in any specific Speak Language skill. Each additional rank in a specific Speak Language skill is acquired by succeeding in an Intelligence check against the language’s DC. Acquiring additional ranks in a Speak Language skill, represents the characters effort to master that language.

2 ranks – Speak (and write)
3 ranks - Speak (and write) as native
4 ranks - Masterly

For the purpose of determining maximum ranks all Speak Language skill ranks acquired through a successful Learn Check or Intelligence check are considered ranks of a virtual Speak Language (general) skill. So if a 1st level bard succeeds in four Learn Checks or Intelligence checks (in one or more languages) he has spent his maximum ranks in Speak Language.
Accomplishment by the Week/Day: You can make Learn Checks by the week instead of by the month, in which case the chek’s DC increases by 5. Checks by the day increase the chek’s DC by 15.
Medium exposure to a language increases the check’s DC by 5.
Retry: You cannot retry to learn a language more than once a day.
Special: If you are making a Speak Language check untrained you make an Intelligence check against the language’s DC plus 15. Success means you are able to making yourself understood with much effort. If you have a minimum of 3 ranks in the appropriate Speak Language skill you gain a +2 synergy bonus on Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge [Local?], Perform, Read Lips, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks.
A literate character with at least 2 ranks in a specific Speak Language skill can also read and write in that language.

In my CS everybod is considered illiterate unless he decides to learn to read and write by taking the Literacy skill

Please consider that this is not a full fashed out variant (we still work on it) and that it is more concearned with speaking than understanding a language (in which case you would have to include tasks and modifiers for dialects, accents etc.).

What do you say?

 

[JBowtie]

Here is my solution; I will be playtesting these rules tomorrow evening.

A few notes for those considering these rules -

* Characters using these rules will generally speak 1-2 languages fluently and be illiterate. This reflects the reality of life before the printing press.
* Wizards and clerics are literate by default. This reflects the special training both classes undergo. Bards rely on oral tradition and therefore do not get the training.
* Decipher Script can be used to get the general gist of any writing - EVEN IF the character is illiterate.
* Widely divergent social classes probably count as different dialects; think Cockney versus Queen's English in Victorian London.

Speak Language (INT; Trained Only)

You can speak and understand a selected language. If you are literate (see the Literacy feat), you can also read and write the language.

Making Checks
Normal conversation assumes you are taking 10. Speak Language checks are required when attempting to speak or understand unusual words or concepts; attempting to adopt, disguise, or understand an extremely thick accent or dialect; or, if literate, when reading non-magical writing.

Checks are only made once per conversation or inscription, at the beginning. The DM may require additional checks if the main conversation topic changes. For example, two smiths discussing the weather is a DC 10 conversation; if they start comparing notes on vitrification techniques, this has become a DC 15 conversation.

On a successful check, there are no impediments to understanding and everyone converses normally.

Failing a check by 4 or less means you get the general meaning, but are unable to communicate specifics.

Failing a check by 5 or more can either mean that you simply do not understand, or that you have completely misinterpreted the information.

Fluencies
All characters are assumed to be fluent in their native languages (i.e, those languages listed as automatic for the character's race). The Fluency feat can be taken at first level to gain fluency in additional tongues.

Being fluent allows the character to take 10 at all times and grants a +5 fluency bonus to all Speak Language checks. You can make Speak Language checks in a fluent language even if you do not have any ranks.

Common Tasks
DC - Task
5 - Speak or understand simple, set phrases, such as "My name is John." or "Where is the market?"
10 - Carry on normal conversation with a native speaker.
15 - Speak or understand slang, jargon, or technical conversation (topics relating to Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skills).
15 - Affect an foreign accent convincingly (enough to fool a non-native).
20 - Comprehend unusual or arcane dialects.
20 - Flawlessly adopt an foreign accent (enough to fool a native speaker).

Common Difficulty Modifiers (added to DC)
DC Modifier - Condition
+2 - Thick accent
+5 - Extremely thick or unusual accent
+2 - Unfamiliar dialect or slang
+5 - Extremely distinct or unusual dialect or slang
+5 - Ideographic language (see Literacy)

Common Check modifiers (added to results)
Modifier - Condition
-5 - Barbarian penalty if using Literacy rules
+5 - Fluency bonus granted to native speakers
+2 - Reading/writing unfamiliar words, phonetic language (see Literacy)

Synergies
If you have 5 or more ranks in Disguise, you gain a +2 synergy bonus to Speak Language checks when attempting to affect an accent.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Speak Language, you gain a +2 synergy bonus to Perform (oratory) checks when making a speech in that language.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Speak Language, you gain a +2 synergy bonus the Profession (writer) checks when writing in that language.


Fluency (General)
Prerequisites: Can be taken at first character level only
You are fluent in a foreign language and may treat it as if you were a native. You may always take 10 on Speak Language checks for this language and gain a +5 fluency bonus to such checks.

Literacy (General)
Prerequisites: Fluency or 4 ranks in Speak Language
You can read and write the selected language.
A phonetic language is one in which the symbols or letters represent sounds made while speaking. This means that unfamiliar words can be sounded out when reading or writing, giving speakers a +2 bonus when doing so.
In an ideographic language, on the other hand, the symbols are pictures representing entire words or concepts. This means one cannot leverage one's speaking knowledge as effectively and that there are many more symbols to memorize. The extra difficulty is reflected by increasing the DC of reading and writing by 5.
Special: In a normal setting, Clerics and Wizards gain this feat for free. Barbarians suffer a -5 Barbarian penalty when reading and writing.
In a high-literacy setting, all classes except barbarians gain this feat for free; barbarians in such a setting do not suffer the -5 penalty.

 

[JBowtie]

Here's a quick rundown of the implications from my last version. Right now I'm prepping for tonight's game and have made the following notes.
The short version is that this one rule change has already altered the balance of power (churches are much more important) and made me revise the treasure assignment.

Players just wanting to converse in a language only need to take one rank. This is in line with existing practice.
Automatic and bonus languages are handled via fluencies; players can extend their starting languages by spending feats.
Players can always spend skill points to learn new languages, or, critically, improve their existing languages.

There are crunch benefits (synergy bonuses, actual skill checks) for spending more than one rank. The penalties for not doing so are not very harsh since we can handle normal conversation with one rank.

Realistic literacy rules means most characters are functionally illiterate. This is not a big deal when 95% of the population is also illiterate.
Clerics, with free literacy in one language, become really important community hubs since they do all the reading and writing. Also means most leaders will have a cleric on staff (which translates into more secular power for religions).

Wizards also have great authority and don't have to rely on the church. Great potential for conflict between church and magic-wielders.

Very few signs will be up, most of them will have a picture. Heraldry,seals and markers become far more important. True to the reality of the day but often overlooked by adventure writers.

Seals will be used instead of signatures; wax seals can be ruined by heat. Forgery involves carefully heating the seal and restamping it or reproducing an existing signet or seal.

Signet rings, writs, and so forth as treasure allow creative literate players to take advantage of the reputation of the defeated before his death is widely known.

Inscriptions and such will mostly be handled by Decipher Script, plan for this. Most important inscriptions will be accompanied by marks or pictures to get the gist across to the illterate majority; especially warnings or curses.
Books are much rarer (therefore more valuable as treasure) and adventurer's journals kept only by wizards and clerics.

NPCs (except messengers) will hardly ever have papers or journals on them. A written message on the battlefield is as good as encryption. Instead, drop hints with heraldry and uniforms. Maps will rarely be annotated (and may not be decipherable if they are); players will need to rely on recognition, rumour and conjecture to figure out a random map.

One problem already: experts or an equivalent class need to be literate automatically; all your sages, scribes, magistrates, senechals, and scholars will know how to read and most of them won't be clerics or wizards.

Tapstries, carvings, and paintings are great ways to supply information in the dungeon. Instead of inscribing the king's name, do a mosaic of the king that incorporates his best-known accomplishments. Instead of a journal entry describing a river, have a sketchbook with pictures of the river. Replace expository NPCs with tapestries showing the story of a famous battle (and bring the tapestry to town to get the old man to tell you about it, or give the bard a boost to his bardic knowledge).

Oral history is more important. Old people are the storytellers and historians and the loss of them, especially in small communities, can devestate the entire area. How do we appease the volcano goddess? The old man would be able to tell us, but...

 

[Aaron2]

Very few signs will be up, most of them will have a picture. Heraldry,seals and markers become far more important. True to the reality of the day but often overlooked by adventure writers.

I'm curious as to what the general literacy rates were in the various time periods; roman, dark ages, medieval, and renaissance (sp). Anyone know abouts?


Aaron

 

[JBowtie]

I'm curious as to what the general literacy rates were in the various time periods; roman, dark ages, medieval, and renaissance (sp). Anyone know abouts?

"...the likely overall illiteracy level of the Roman Empire during the time of Augustus is almost certain to have been over 90%." (W. Harris, 1989)


Literacy stats were not collected or reported until the twentieth century, so as far as I know there are no authoritative sources.

Most credible estimates of illiteracy are in the 90-98% range, up at the high end during the Dark Ages and dropping as low as 80% in the Renaissance (as a data point, during this period the university was invented). However, these are *overall* rates. Literacy among the aristocracy, especially in later periods was predictably much higher than the general population.

Some possible resources from your local library:
Carcopino, Jerome. Daily Life in Ancient Rome. New Haven, CT: Yale Univ. Press. See esp. Ch. V, "Education and Religion."

Butts, R. Freeman. A Cultural History of Western Education

Marrou, Henri I. A History of Education in Antiquity

Charlton, Kenneth. Education in Renaissance England. London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1965.

 

[Aaron2]

"...the likely overall illiteracy level of the Roman Empire during the time of Augustus is almost certain to have been over 90%." (W. Harris, 1989)

I would expect that number to be higher, especially considering all the letters and documents found at Vindolanda. Many of the letters were written by ordinary soldiers and auxiliaries. I guess it all depends on how you define “illiterate.” I’ll have to check out that book to see the evidence used. Looking over W. Harris’ resume makes me slightly suspicious.

Even if writing were extremely common, I wouldn’t expect literacy rates to rise above 20% considering the large number of people (women, slaves, etc) who were denied much education.


Aaron

 

[JBowtie]

I would expect that number to be higher, especially considering all the letters and documents found at Vindolanda. Many of the letters were written by ordinary soldiers and auxiliaries.

Well, he is quoting a specific time period, which may not be representative.

In my understanding, it was frequently the case that scribes were hired by those who couldn't read or write themselves. Without doing more research, I have no idea how widespread that practice was, but that could be held up as a potential vector for documents by 'common' folk. Even a couple of scribes per 1,000 people can crank out a lot of output without increasing the overall literacy rate. Heck, a literacy rate of 5% gives you one potential scribe per 20 people, more than enough to serve the needs of the entire population at large (especially given that the status of women and slaves means you only need fulfill the needs of what, 30 or 40% of the general population?)