OGL Section 15 Question

[Nellisir]

So the entirety of every source's section 15 gets duplicated, right?

Yes.

(I assume that if you use multiple sources and there are duplicate entries, like the SRD, you can eliminate duplicates?) Is there anything about keeping things in the same order? (Because removing duplicates changes the original order...)

Use common sense, and err on the side of caution. That's the best advice I can give. But removing duplicates is traditionally done, and every company has it's own way of running the S.15. (I like to throw every book I've copied OGC from into every S.15 I do, just to be safe -- it's not like it's really all that much work for me. Enter once, and copy/paste, copy/paste. Also, the more entries in your S.15, the fewer new ones you'll likely have to enter..)

Cheers
Nell.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Does anyone else use the S.15 from various products as a shoppng list?

The Auld Grump

 

[Man-thing]

All the time. I've bought a good number of products based on section 15. Sometimes to see where the inspiration comes from and sometimes to figure out what the hell this book used from that.

 

[HellHound]

All the time. I've bought a good number of products based on section 15. Sometimes to see where the inspiration comes from and sometimes to figure out what the hell this book used from that.

TThat can have interesting repercussions, since some products have S15's because of a single feat or two, and those were drawn from a book where those feats were actually original, but said book referenced another 5-6 books for -other- material. The viral nature of the license means that you may pick up a book that appears in a Section 15, but that no part of that book made it into the product in question.

 

[Man-thing]

TThat can have interesting repercussions, since some products have S15's because of a single feat or two, and those were drawn from a book where those feats were actually original, but said book referenced another 5-6 books for -other- material. The viral nature of the license means that you may pick up a book that appears in a Section 15, but that no part of that book made it into the product in question.

Okay, I'm confused. If I want to use "The Biggest Fish in the World That Steals Paper" I need to reference:

The Kid’s Colouring Book ‘o’ Critters - Celebrity Edition 2002 Copyright 2002, Ambient Inc; by Chrystine Robinson, Genevieve Robinson, M Jason Parent

Since its the source I drew the item from.

Are you saying I need to include everything in its section 15? Like this:

Four Color to Fantasy, Copyright 2002, Natural 20 Press
Spycraft, Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment Group
Forbidden Kingdoms, Copyright 2002, Other World Creations
Cyberstyle, Copyright 2002, Dark Quest, LLC
The Kid’s Colouring Book ‘o’ Critters Copyright 2002, Ambient Inc; by Chrystine Robinson, Genevieve Robinson, M Jason Parent
The Kid’s Colouring Book ‘o’ Critters - Celebrity Edition 2002 Copyright 2002, Ambient Inc; by Chrystine Robinson, Genevieve Robinson, M Jason Parent

Because if that's the case then shouldn't I also have to reference:

All the Section 15 from the Spycraft book
and all the sections from the books that spycrafts lists.
and so on.

 

[Nellisir]

Okay, I'm confused. If I want to use "The Biggest Fish in the World That Steals Paper" I need to reference:

The Kid’s Colouring Book ‘o’ Critters - Celebrity Edition 2002 Copyright 2002, Ambient Inc; by Chrystine Robinson, Genevieve Robinson, M Jason Parent

Since its the source I drew the item from.

Are you saying I need to include everything in its section 15? Like this:

Four Color to Fantasy, Copyright 2002, Natural 20 Press
Spycraft, Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment Group
Forbidden Kingdoms, Copyright 2002, Other World Creations
Cyberstyle, Copyright 2002, Dark Quest, LLC
The Kid’s Colouring Book ‘o’ Critters Copyright 2002, Ambient Inc; by Chrystine Robinson, Genevieve Robinson, M Jason Parent
The Kid’s Colouring Book ‘o’ Critters - Celebrity Edition 2002 Copyright 2002, Ambient Inc; by Chrystine Robinson, Genevieve Robinson, M Jason Parent

Because if that's the case then shouldn't I also have to reference:

All the Section 15 from the Spycraft book
and all the sections from the books that spycrafts lists.
and so on.

Yes, exactly.

Now, hopefully Ambient had their stuff together and have already included the S.15's from those sources, so you shouldn't have to go out and buy all those books just to make sure you get the S.15 right. Alot of books (probably including Spycraft) are just based off the SRD, so the S.15's aren't as long as you might think they are.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Man-thing]

What if the "Biggest Fish in the World..." doesn't actually use anything from Spycraft, why should it be referenced?
What if the author's were inspired by a concept from another product but did not take or modilfy anything directly?
I understand that its probably a legal thing that is "just because" but I'm one of those why people.

Plus if I include something from Monster Geographic my list for Section 15 could be pages long even though in reality the material I used was taken from one book:

Monster Geographica: Underground, Copyright 2004, Expeditious Retreat Press

By your suggestion I would need to list:
(Copy and pasted so its in rough shape)

Monster of the Mind, Copyright 2003
Green Ronin Publishing; Authors Kevin
Brennan, James Maliszewski, Morgan Peer, and Tracy
Peer
Monsters of the Endless Dark: The Wanderers
Guild Guide to Subterranean Organisms, by Jon
Pollom and Andy Hopp, Copyright 2002 Jon Pollom
and Andy Hoop. Published by Goodman Games
(contact goodmangames @mindspring.com, or see
www.goodmangames.com.)
The Kaiser’s Garden, Copyright 2003, Mad
Kaiser Games
Open game content from Ultimate Monsters
Volume I copyright 2003, Mongoose Publishing Ltd.
Into the Black, Copyright 2003, Bastion Press,
Inc.
Liber Bestarius, Copyright 2002, Eden Studios,
Inc.
Creature Collection III: Savage Bestiary
Copyright 2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Tome of Horrors II Copyright 2004, Necromancer
Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene; Additional Authors:
Erica Balsley, Kevin Baase, Casey Christofferson, Jim
Collura, Meghan Greene, Lance Hawvermale, Travis
Hawvermale, Bill Kenower, Patrick Lawinger, Nathan
Paul, Clark Peterson, Bill Webb and Monte Cook.
Denizens of Avadnu Copyright 2003, The Inner
Circle.
Open Game Content from The Penumbra Bestiary
Copyright 2003, Trident Inc. d/b/a Atlas Games; editor
Michelle A Brown Nephew.
Creature Collection Revised Copyright 2003,
White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Slime Crawler from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors Casey
Christofferson and Scott Greene.
Archer Bush from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
based on original material by Jean Wells.
Cave Fisher from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
based on original material by Lawrence Schick.
Eye Killer from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
based on original material by Ian Livingstone.
Skulleton from Tome of Horrors, Copyright 2002,
Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene.
Mercury Ooze from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene.
Symbiotic Jelly from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
based on original material by Roger Musson.
Basidirond from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Cave Troll from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene
and Clark Peterson.
Crypt Thing from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
based on original material by Roger Musson.
Ascomoid from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000,
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
System Reference Document Copyright 2000,
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet,
Monte Cook, Skip Williams, based on original material
by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
A Magical Society: Ecology and Culture,
Copyright 2004, Expeditious Retreat Press, Authors
Suzi Yee and Joseph Browning
Nyambe: African Adventures Copyright 2002,
Trident Inc. d/b/a/ Atlas Games; author Christopher W.
Dolunt
Minions v3.5 Copyright 2003, Bastion Press,
OGL
200
based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Death Watch Beetle from Tome of Horrors,
Copyright 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author
Scott Greene and Clark Peterson, based on original
material by Gary Gygax.
Rock Troll from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene.
Undead Ooze from Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene,
based on original material by Sword & Sorcery
Studios.
Trapper from Tome of Horrors, Copyright 2002,
Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based
on original material by Gary Gygax.
Twilight Mushrooms from Tome of Horrors,
Copyright 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author
Scott Greene.
Original Spell Name Compendium Copyright
2002 Necromancer Games, Inc.; based on spells from
the Player’s Handbook that were renamed in the System
Reference Document, found on the legal page of www..
necromancergames.com.
Creature Collection Copyright 2000, Clark
Peterson
Relics & Rituals Copyright 2001, Clark Peterson
Creature Collection 2: Dark Menagerie Copyright
2001, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Mithril: City of the Golem Copyright 2001, White
Wolf Publishing, Inc.
HoIIowfaust: City of Necromancers Copyright
2001, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
The Wise and the Wicked Copyright 2001, White
Wolf Publishing, Inc.
The Divine and the Defeated Copyright 2001,
White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Burok Torn: City Under Siege Copyright 2002,
White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Vigil Watch: Warrens of the Raftnen Copyright
2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Secrets and Societies Copyright 2002, White
Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Wilderness & Wasteland Copyright 2002, White
Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Scarred Lands Campaign Setting: Ghelspad
Copyright .2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Relics & Rituals 2: Lost Lore Copyright 2002,
White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Serpent in the Fold: Serpent Amphora Cycle,
Book I Copyright 2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Calastia: Throne of the Black Dragon Copyright
2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Scarred Lands Gazetteer: Termana Copyright.
2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
The Serpent and the Scepter: Serpent Amphora
Cycle, Book IlCopyright 2002, White Wolf Publishing,
Inc.
Hornsaw: Forest of Blood Copyright 2002, White
Wolf Publishing, Inc.
The Penumbral Pentagon Copyright 2003, White
Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Shelzar: City of Sins Copyright 2003, White Wolf
Publishing, Inc.
The Serpent Citadel: Serpent Amphora Cycle,
Book III Copyright 2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Blood Bayou Copyright 2003, White Wolf
Publishing, Inc.
Player’s Guide to Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers
Copyright 2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Player’s Guide to Fighters and Barbarians,
Copyright2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Player’s Guide to Clerics and Druids Copyright
2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Player’s Guide to Rangers and Rogues Copyright
2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Scarred Lands Campaign Setting: Termana
Copyright X’C 5, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Vigil Watch: Secrets of the Asaatthi Copyright
2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc. The Faithful and the
Forsaken Copyright 2003, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
The Complete Guide to Drow, Jeffrey Quinn,
Copyright 2002 Joseph Goodman DBA Goodman
Games (contact goodmangames @mindspring.com, or
see www.goodmangames.com.)
Open game content from Evil is copyright 2001,
Alderac Entertainment Group Inc.
Hammer & Helm: A Guidebook to Dwarves,
copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing; Author Jesse
Decker
Dungeons, Copyright 2000, Alderac
Entertainment Group
Evil, Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment
Group
Dragons, Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment
Group
Undead, Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment
Group
Into the Green Copyright 2003, Bastion Press,
Inc.
War, Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment
Group
Monster, Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment
Group
Disenchanter from the Tome of Horrors,
Copyright 2002. Necromancer Games, Inc; Author
Scott Greene based upon original material by Roger
Musson.
Bookworm from the Tome of Horrors, Copyright
2002. Necromancer Games, Inc; Author Scott Greene
based upon original material by Gary Gygax.
Purple Moss from the Tome of Horrors,
Copyright 2002. Necromancer Games, Inc; Author
Scott Greene based upon original material by Jean
Wells.
Occult Lore Copyright 2002, Trident Inc. d/b/a
Atlas Games; authors Keith Baker, Adam Bank, Chris
Jones, Scott Reeves, and Elton Robb
Monster Geographica: Underground, Copyright
2004, Expeditious Retreat Press
OGL

Even though I only used and looked at one book and may have never even seen any of the others.

 

[DragonSword]

I now understand why it is so many publishing gurus say the license is flawed!

 

[Nellisir]

What if the "Biggest Fish in the World..." doesn't actually use anything from Spycraft, why should it be referenced?
What if the author's were inspired by a concept from another product but did not take or modilfy anything directly?

Even though I only used and looked at one book and may have never even seen any of the others.

Because, in all likelyhood, you don't know, particularly if you've never even seen any of the others. If you've never seen any of the source material, you can't know what was used and what was merely included due to the nature of the license. Even if you have seen it, it's often hard to determine what is new, what is copied, and what was modified.

If this is the "flaw" in the license, it's a tiny thing. It's not that hard to work with, as you just proved -- you can now save that S15 from Underground and add to it as necessary, sparing you the time of entering in all those entries. Page counts are usually flexible in PDFs, and font sizes can be pushed pretty small in print products.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[trancejeremy]

Of course bear in mind, almost no one actually does the OGL correctly, and no one at WOTC (or any 3rd party company) seems to care.

Heck, companies still often either omit the SRD itself or their own product in S15. And it's what, 5 years after the OGL came out.