Oh boy...

[Alzrius]

I was about to write the show off entirely when I heard about this Borg bit, but the part with them supposedly being the Borg from First Contact has made me decide to give it a chance.

The Borg are cool, but after Voyager they've been done to death, so much so that I'm rather sick of this otherwise-awesome idea.

The trick, as someone else pointed out, will be how they can keep continuity with this, since Picard's contact with the Borg was the first contact the Federation had with them.

And of course, one must wonder if this will somehow manage to tie in with the movie and comic book where, immediately after First Contact, Picard and crew meet the X-Men (who had already met Kirk and crew before)!

 

[Eternalknight]

My weak ability of Star Trek knowledge may show here but didn't Earth know about Ferengi durning WW2. I mean Quark and his brother and nephew got thrown back in time (groan) and landed in Area 51 in one DS9 episode. I know Odo was there and didn't see the end of the episode so I don't know if they "fixed" the time line.

Correct, though if memory serves the UT was broken and so no actual communivation between the Ferengi and Man took place.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ferengi:
I believe Rom was able to repair the Universal Translator, but probably the whole information got lost in the 3. Worldwar. (The military kept this obviously secret, and the secret files got lost...)

The fact that the Enterprise encounted the Ferengi is not so suprising, remember that the Ferengi are traders, and probably they are "going boldly where no ferengi has gone before, to seek out new life and civilization to sell them useless stuff for great profit and maybe some exotic forms of unox."

Borg:
Maybe the Enterprise Crew will not be able to see the Borg on Earth, they just have to bomb them away with Photon Torpedos (oh, damn, they don`t have them... Well, nuclear bombs).

Seven of Nines parents seemed not to be in contact with federation, similar to the Voyager. They were deep space explorers, all on their own. Maybe both the assimilation of these deep space explorers and the Q-Incident make the Borg curious on the Federation and the inhabitants of the Alpha Quadrant. (Maybe the Borg were surprised to see a Federation ship such deep in the Delta Quardrant and they thought invading the Fedeartion might be very useful. Woulndn`t be the last/first time that Q`s interference nearly destroyed human civilization - remeber the TNG finale)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Orius]

It is not so much continuity that I have a problem with on this particular event. It is the fact that they keep using "things" for the later series. Is there NO creative spark left in the writers or producers? Must they always revert to concepts that were introduced in TNG and later?

I think there's (at least) two possibilities here:

1: The writers/producers/Braga are too lazy to go back and actually research some of the TOS episodes and work with material from them. This is another reason why DS9 was one of the best Treks: it referenced more TOS material than any other series (though Enterprise has come close).

2: The writers/producers/Braga may feel that there's a lot, even too much, cheesy mateiral from TOS, and since modern Trek takes itself far too seriously, they don't want to go there.

As another has stated they have a good villian in the form of Kingons at this point. Romulans aren't going to be too far behind as far as being a major threat. How about those Orions or Andorians...haven't seen much about them really. There's the Tholians too. Why do we need to bring the Borg into it? (As far as Cardassians go, Enterprise hasn't travelled far enough to meet them yet. Same reason should have applied to the Ferengi, but darn it...there's that lack of creativity again...gotta go with what has already been established).

Exactly. I think a lot of Trek fans would probably prefer to see classic races from TOS explored. However, I don't mind seeing races from later shows put in, provided it doesn't trash Trek continuity, at least any more than it's already been trashed. A good example was the Nausicaan episode from last season.

 

[Orius]

My weak ability of Star Trek knowledge may show here but didn't Earth know about Ferengi durning WW2. I mean Quark and his brother and nephew got thrown back in time (groan) and landed in Area 51 in one DS9 episode. I know Odo was there and didn't see the end of the episode so I don't know if they "fixed" the time line.

Yeah, well I don't really count that, because it was meant as kind of a spoof of all those silly Roswell theories that were floating around at the time.

And besides, it was all covered up by the Army at the end: "All we found was a weather balloon".

Even if it involved a silly time travel plot, it was still a fun episode to watch.

 

[jdavis]

And they did it on purpose, as a result of the time travelling guys, so they wouldn't have to deal with the obsessive-compulsives who say "but that's not how they said it originally happened when Picard and Data talked about it in episode 3.13". They destroyed the rediculous 'continuity' in the very first episode so they would be free to do what they wanted from then on. Without the time travellers, the warp 5 ship wouldn't have been launched until years later, and the first contact with the Klingons would have been disasterous, and there would have been a nuclear war in space with the Romulans, but now they can rewrite as they see fit. Bravo.

That's why I stopped watching, by this line of thought the changes in Enterprise now make all previous shows (which were set in the future from Enterprise) non-existant. When you are watching reruns of Next Genreation just remember that none of that happens anymore, heck they might not even exist anymore in the timeline, the story was based on events in the timeline and those events have been changed. If there is no war with the Klingons then why would there be constant war with the Klingons, then the first Star Trek series didn't happen, nothing makes any sense anymore.

What's the sense of having a rich and developed history to the shows if you are just going to change it at a whim. The obsesive-compulsives who can quote lines from 15 year old episodes and learn how to speak Klingon are the shows fanbase, you want people to watch Star Trek, well shouldn't you aim it at your fan base. They think the Borg will pop a rating, they are trying to link it to one movie at the expense of every other show and movie that has ever been made? What was wrong with following the timeline as it was set out, can't they write a decent script that doesn't have to rehash a future plot (and isn't rehashing the future sort of a odd concept to start with?). If they didn't want to worry anbout storyline continuity then they should of done a show based in the present timeline or in the future from voyager. Thes show was based on showing you "how it all started" shouldn't they be showing you "how it all started"? It's sort of like writing a very special episode of Friends where they all die as teenagers and then telling you the whole series was all a dream.

 

[Mistwell]

That's why I stopped watching, by this line of thought the changes in Enterprise now make all previous shows (which were set in the future from Enterprise) non-existant. When you are watching reruns of Next Genreation just remember that none of that happens anymore, heck they might not even exist anymore in the timeline, the story was based on events in the timeline and those events have been changed. If there is no war with the Klingons then why would there be constant war with the Klingons, then the first Star Trek series didn't happen, nothing makes any sense anymore.

What, you have never had to deal with a time paradox before? That's how they all work. That is the whole point of the Time Travel Cold War.

Did you freak out when watching Back to the Future?

How about when watching the Star Trek whale movie (what was that, IV)?

All it means is you have two alternate but co-existing universes. You have the ST universe up until the Enterprise show, and you have the alternate Enterprise universe. Shrodinger said that was possible way back in the 1920's and 1930's.

What's the sense of having a rich and developed history to the shows if you are just going to change it at a whim.

You might as well ask what's the sense of having free will? Just because you have a rich and developed history doesn't mean you have to follow that rich and developed history like it is a predetermined script.

The obsesive-compulsives who can quote lines from 15 year old episodes and learn how to speak Klingon are the shows fanbase, you want people to watch Star Trek, well shouldn't you aim it at your fan base.

Now I think you have lost touch with reality. The show has millions of viewers. I doubt there are more than 5,000 obsessive compulsive 15 year old ST fans in the nation at this point. The draw of the show was always that it was open to all viewers, not just ST geeks. For God sakes you got talk radio hosts like Dr. Laura mentioning ST episodes even!

They think the Borg will pop a rating, they are trying to link it to one movie at the expense of every other show and movie that has ever been made?

JDavis, really, what is with all the drama here. It isn't at the expense of anything. In fact, it is continuing FROM a movie.

What was wrong with following the timeline as it was set out, can't they write a decent script that doesn't have to rehash a future plot (and isn't rehashing the future sort of a odd concept to start with?).

Because the timelined has been messed with, in classic ST fashion, numerous times before they even got to this show. Messing with the time line is pretty darn consistent with the tradition and history of the show. And the reason for that is the same as it has always been - it is stupid to reduce your ability to be creative by forcing things into an artificial fictional history that is predetermined.

If they didn't want to worry anbout storyline continuity then they should of done a show based in the present timeline or in the future from voyager. Thes show was based on showing you "how it all started" shouldn't they be showing you "how it all started"? It's sort of like writing a very special episode of Friends where they all die as teenagers and then telling you the whole series was all a dream.

That's how Newhart ended, didn't it?

 

[VorpalBunny]

What, you have never had to deal with a time paradox before? That's how they all work. That is the whole point of the Time Travel Cold War.

Just want to add my $0.02 here : A temporal paradox does not by definition have to change the future. In fact, in 30 years of Star Trek they go out of their way to explain that a paradox that changes the history of the Federation is bad.

Did you freak out when watching Back to the Future?
How about when watching the Star Trek whale movie (what was that, IV)?

Back to the Future is an entirely different genre. Why not also mention the Simpsons episode where Homer goes back in time and single-handedly causes the extinction of the dinosaurs? Comparing those examples to Star Trek is like comparing apples and oranges. However, at the end of ST:IV Federation history was not changed, and the addition of two humpback whales did not contradict any canon established in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.

All it means is you have two alternate but co-existing universes. You have the ST universe up until the Enterprise show, and you have the alternate Enterprise universe. Shrodinger said that was possible way back in the 1920's and 1930's.

That's an interesting thought, but unfortunately, it is not evident in the show.

Just because you have a rich and developed history doesn't mean you have to follow that rich and developed history like it is a predetermined script.

That's true. But then why set the show in the "Star Trek" Universe? Because Trek has a rich and developed history - and the producers were hoping to use the Star Trek brand and history to lure in viewers. When people watch a Trek show they expect certain consistencies. The very ones that have been developed in past series and movies. ENTERPRISE can work just as well as a show without being attached to the Trek universe.

Because the timelined has been messed with, in classic ST fashion, numerous times before they even got to this show. Messing with the time line is pretty darn consistent with the tradition and history of the show. And the reason for that is the same as it has always been - it is stupid to reduce your ability to be creative by forcing things into an artificial fictional history that is predetermined.

Yep, time travel is a Star Trek staple. But, at the end of every previous time travel show, the timeline has been restored - meaning past and present events still conform to Trek canon. The problem I have (and I see i'm not the only one) is that ENTERPRISE is changing this canon without any help from the "Temporal Cold War" and making no apologies for doing it.

 

[Ranger REG]

Sorry, but I have never figured time travel to be Star Trek staple, just one of many tools. But when used poorly, it can give one a massive migraine, like the one I'm having now.

Sometimes I wish Braga would get off those time-travel plot device. It's not his forte.

 

[jdavis]

What, you have never had to deal with a time paradox before?

No, my personal timeline is pretty stable

Did you freak out when watching Back to the Future?

Wasn't the whole premise of the movies Michael J Fox trying to fix all the wierd things that happened when he disturbed the timeline? I didn't freak out because he wasn't trying to mess with the past he was trying to make everything go back to normal.

How about when watching the Star Trek whale movie (what was that, IV)?

I do believe they went through great lengths not to disturb the timeline, I mean wasn't that the whole reason for them sneaking around and hiding.

All it means is you have two alternate but co-existing universes. You have the ST universe up until the Enterprise show, and you have the alternate Enterprise universe. Shrodinger said that was possible way back in the 1920's and 1930's.

Yes but I don't care about a alternate universe and obviously I'm not alone. I do see what you are saying but in TV world they are just doing what they want and not even remotely trying to stick to the given history. They don't care about the given history they change it at the drop of a hat, the only reason for it to be in any way related to the other Star Trek properties is name relation, other thatn that they are just writing it from scratch, and yes this episode draws from one of the movies and yes they might find a way to cover it up so nobody knows exactly what happened but chances are they won't.

You might as well ask what's the sense of having free will? Just because you have a rich and developed history doesn't mean you have to follow that rich and developed history like it is a predetermined script.

If you want to have a show that doesn't have to worry about a huge in depth mythology written up around it then do a new show, do a original show, Star TreK shows have decades of background history, they have a definatly defined timeline that shows how things came about. They have spent 30 years adding detail and depth to this, why throw it out? Why throw out a 30 year old foundation that is known and loved by 100's of millions of fans worldwide just for the sake of giving a little more freedom in writing the script?

Now I think you have lost touch with reality. The show has millions of viewers. I doubt there are more than 5,000 obsessive compulsive 15 year old ST fans in the nation at this point. The draw of the show was always that it was open to all viewers, not just ST geeks. For God sakes you got talk radio hosts like Dr. Laura mentioning ST episodes even!

....................I have lost touch? the show has huge conventions and speakers, they made a movie about the fans of the show. I am not saying anything bad about these people, heck I am friends with a lot of these people, they are not a handful of 15 year olds, I'm talking about a huge amount of people, (I was a Star Wars one, my best friend makes his own lightsabers, we are in our 30's) These people have normal lives they just love the show, they love to talk about the shows, they love to know every detail about the shows, they are the ones who keep the shows going. Yes there is a large demographic of viewers but a Star Trek series target audience should be Star Trek fans, if not then who are you trying to get to watch the show? If my remarks sounded offensive to those people then I apologise because many of those people are good friends of mine, my comments weren't meant to be a negative view of them, heck in a lot of ways I am one of them.

JDavis, really, what is with all the drama here. It isn't at the expense of anything. In fact, it is continuing FROM a movie.

No Drama, I just don't like the show because it steps on a lot of toes, and I am sure that I am not alone, I was just giving my opinion on the show. Yes it is continuing from a movie and if you watched the movie one of the big points in it was them worrying about how much they should or should not do for fear of damaging the timelines. They were trying to fix history not arbitrarily changing it to pop a rating.

Because the timelined has been messed with, in classic ST fashion, numerous times before they even got to this show. Messing with the time line is pretty darn consistent with the tradition and history of the show. And the reason for that is the same as it has always been - it is stupid to reduce your ability to be creative by forcing things into an artificial fictional history that is predetermined.

They didn't mess with the timeline they did time travel, and they were always worried about how it would affect the future, one of the big points with every episode or movie that dealt with time travel was them worrying about how their actions would affect the future. Maintaining and explaining the history of the Federation is is also classic Star Trek, why the heck do they ram the Prime Directive down your throat every other episode, not changing things they shouldn't mess with or worring about the repercussions of their actions is a huge part of Star Trek. As far as reducing their ability to be creative, they are the ones who created this huge and detailed fictional history, how is following what they wrote reducing their ability to be creative, it's their creation to start with. And to top it all off how is rehashing the Borg (or any other established race that isn't supposed to be there) being creative to start with, why don't they just take the old scripts and just change the names? Part of the whole problem here is the lack of creativity, they are rehashing races and storylines. How many races out there have yet to be ran into the dirt could they do stories about? Why can't they come up with new and different species instead of having the Ferengi show up? The show isn't doing as well as they would like, The Borg will pop a rating, it's has nothing to do with creativity it's trying to pop a rating on name recognition.

That's how Newhart ended, didn't it?

Yes it was, and maybe we shoudn't give them any ideas, next thing you know the whole Enterprise series could just be a glitch in Data's memory processors. Newhart was also drawing things together with his old show too. Maybe if I watched Enterprise and thought of it as a comedy........

I think the big point here is that I am allowed to not like this show and to say "Hey I don't like this show". I don't take it personal, I don't have any drama in my life about it, I don't loose sleep, but why should I be forbidden from giving my opinion. My opinion is valid and seems to be shared my many other people. They don't have to change the show for me they can do what they like, and I am free to not like what they are doing, no harm no foul.