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Older Editions and "Balance" when compared to 3.5

Unless you actually find a CR 8 creature with AC 40, I'm going to call shenanigans and say a 0% chance.
There's the Thrym hound from MM5. It has an AC of 39 and it's CR10. The monsters generally got tougher throughout the MM series, just as PCs using Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, PHB2, etc were tougher than those that didn't.

I've actually fought and killed a thrym hound as a player. Party of three, ninth level - warblade, rogue, marshal + a cohort. Opposition was a thrym hound and a frost giant. It was an incredibly hard fight, my PC ended on something like 1 hit point.

You could give a CR6 Will-o'-Wisp (AC29) levels in monk and sorcerer, for mage armor and shield, and it would have an AC of 40 (more with the elite array) and be CR8. Conveniently the shield spell also covers one of the Wisp's few vulnerabilities - magic missile. OP, you say? If the level 8 PCs aren't packing a scroll of maze for just such an eventuality, they only have themselves to blame!

Ah, it's all coming back to me! Anyone fancy a game of 3e? All books allowed ofc.

EDIT: I just realised that the Wisp might be immune to its own shield and mage armor spells, sadly. Unless it can switch its immunity off, a la spell resistance. The text does indicate its immunities are like SR. Hmm, the perplexing mysteries of 3e D&D.
 
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I believe it was expected that one would be rolling up new characters even if the old one hadn't died. You would have a big stable of living PCs (and many more dead ones), just like Stan with his folder. Characters would adventure with others of roughly the same level. So your surviving 8th level wizard, Lusaud, would often adventure with my surviving 7th level fighter Ercem Good, even though we might both have many other PCs ranging throughout the levels.

As an illustration of this point, I'll dig out my folder of 1E characters, my 'stable' from those days. Apologies for the non-originality of the names!

Aragorn the Ranger (16th Ranger)
Ged the Wizard (21st level wizard)
Arma the Barbarian (6th level - barbarian class from white dwarf 4)
Hassan the Ninja (6th level thief)
Dominic the Bard (4th level homebrew bard - a sort of fighter-thief)
Greyhalm the grey elf paladin (7th level grey elf paladin)
High Priest Oriel (11th level evil high priest, dual classed (originally 7th level monk)
Anduin the Druid (12th level druid)

There were probably a few others who had gone missing, but those were the main PCs in my stable, and an appropriate one was brought out for the adventure of the week (or so).

Cheers
 

Apologies for the non-originality of the names!
Oooh! It's like a memory test! :D

Aragorn the Ranger - Lord of the Rings
Ged the Wizard - Earthsea
Arma the Barbarian - Amra was one of Conan's other names
Hassan the Ninja - "Hassan Chop!"
Dominic the Bard - ???
Greyhalm the grey elf paladin - ???
High Priest Oriel - ???
Anduin the Druid - Anduin is a river in Lord of the Rings, IIRC.

Does anyone know the others?

I would think "Oriel" might be the name of someone from fiction. "Grayhalm" is made up, and "Dominic" was a friend of Plane Sailing's cousin.
 

(Checks Volume 2 of the White Box.)

Yeah. Just like I thought. That's not true: You can find the magical daggers, axes, bows, maces, war hammers, and spears on page 24. The maces and war hammers would obviously be usable by clerics.

Just a point of clarification here: There are magic weapons other than swords in 0e, but swords are special. All magic swords (and only magic swords) in 0e are intelligent weapons.

Page 27: "Among magic weaponry swords alone possess certain human (and superhuman) attributes. Swords have alignment (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic), an Intelligence factor, and an egoism rating (as well as an optional determination of their origin/purpose)."

The fact that magic swords are the exclusive domain of fighters is supposed to be a major advantage for fighter characters. (Note: Supplement I allows thieves magic swords as well.)

Page 6: "All magical weaponry is usable by fighters, and this in itself is a big advantage."
 

Oh, how we forget - the updates and revisions are there because we asked for them. Relentlessly. Back before the internet was on everyone's phones, it began with letters and questions to Dragon Magazine. The more that technology has made rapid dissemination of information possible, the more we've demanded errata and updates, and griped (loudly) when the producers didn't have them post haste.

Don't blame a company for giving the customers what they ask for. If the other players are asking for things you don't like, that isn't the company's fault.

Perhaps this is my transformation to grognard but the real change seems to have been towards systematic errata instead of ad hoc patches (in which each group worked out it's own set of solutions). I found this approach awkward with Star Fleet Battles and it stays that way with D&D 4E.

I wonder if the inherent complexity of the ruleset isn't the issue? There are a lot fewer moving parts in the (core part of) early editions. Class and rolled ability scores (plus hit points) dominate the character in AD&D. In 3E and 4E character add in feats, dynamic multi-classing and, in 4E, lengthy power lists for all classes.

Now, I don't want to be accused of arguing that complexity is bad (it isn't, not inherently -- I love Star Fleet Battles, for example). But perhaps a high rate of errata is inherent in these complex rules sets? SFB managed to have hundreds of pages of it (scattered through a dozen magazines) long before the internet created easy communication.

This is, I think, the appeal of Castles and Crusades as well. By reducing variability it is a lot harder to find actual breaks in the system.

Or maybe I am looking at a second order effect?
 

EDIT: I just realised that the Wisp might be immune to its own shield and mage armor spells, sadly.
Neither shield nor mage armor are subject to spell resistance, so no problem there.

Doug McCrae said:
Unless it can switch its immunity off, a la spell resistance.
It can. PHB, page 177.

Doug McCrae said:
The text does indicate its immunities are like SR. Hmm, the perplexing mysteries of 3e D&D.
Not really any "mysteries" here, actually. It's all pretty well traveled ground.
 

Perhaps this is my transformation to grognard but the real change seems to have been towards systematic errata instead of ad hoc patches (in which each group worked out it's own set of solutions). I found this approach awkward with Star Fleet Battles and it stays that way with D&D 4E.

I wonder if the inherent complexity of the ruleset isn't the issue? There are a lot fewer moving parts in the (core part of) early editions. Class and rolled ability scores (plus hit points) dominate the character in AD&D. In 3E and 4E character add in feats, dynamic multi-classing and, in 4E, lengthy power lists for all classes.

Now, I don't want to be accused of arguing that complexity is bad (it isn't, not inherently -- I love Star Fleet Battles, for example). But perhaps a high rate of errata is inherent in these complex rules sets? SFB managed to have hundreds of pages of it (scattered through a dozen magazines) long before the internet created easy communication.

This is, I think, the appeal of Castles and Crusades as well. By reducing variability it is a lot harder to find actual breaks in the system.

Or maybe I am looking at a second order effect?

I think one needs to also consider customers' expectations.

4e markets itself as a carefully balanced system, so it's only natural that 4e players will be more scrutinizing of the balance in that system and be less tolerant of "breaks". There is also be a greater desire for "official" fixes rather than house rules. House rules may be perceived as messing up the balance even more or as diverging from the way the game is supposed to be played.

C&C markets itself as a much more "fast and loose", "rulings not rules" system, so there isn't the same level of careful game balance expectation among its players. Players will be more tolerant of "broken" rules. In fact, I think they're more likely to just make up their own house rules to fix "broken" rules and not care about anything "official".

Complexity certainly plays a role, but the expectations that companies build with their customer bases regarding the product also plays a role. The style that the companies choose to have their respective products embrace certainly drives those customer expectations.
 

I wonder if the inherent complexity of the ruleset isn't the issue? There are a lot fewer moving parts in the (core part of) early editions. Class and rolled ability scores (plus hit points) dominate the character in AD&D. In 3E and 4E character add in feats, dynamic multi-classing and, in 4E, lengthy power lists for all classes.

I'm sure that this is the case. The more moving parts there are, the more that there is to go 'wrong' (in the sense of unexpected consequences from a new combination or permutation of things).

In addition, the more tightly rules attempt to define something, the more questions are often raised (e.g. the "that depends upon what 'is' is" kind of interpretational argument!) which 'demand' an official response. Where rules are less complex, people just wing it until some kind of supplement or equivalent appears in most cases IMX.

Cheers
 

Just a point of clarification here: There are magic weapons other than swords in 0e, but swords are special. All magic swords (and only magic swords) in 0e are intelligent weapons.

Page 27: "Among magic weaponry swords alone possess certain human (and superhuman) attributes. Swords have alignment (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic), an Intelligence factor, and an egoism rating (as well as an optional determination of their origin/purpose)."

The fact that magic swords are the exclusive domain of fighters is supposed to be a major advantage for fighter characters. (Note: Supplement I allows thieves magic swords as well.)

Page 6: "All magical weaponry is usable by fighters, and this in itself is a big advantage."

This is what I was trying to say. The powerful stuff was Fighters-only, at least for a while.

You make an interesting point about whether a broken points value system (gold piece value being the points in the case of the 3e magic item system) is worse than no system at all. I've been finding with games like Champions, at least up to 4th edition, and M&M, that their balancing mechanisms are so borked as to be worse than useless. One is better off ignoring the point cost and just looking at the PC's capabilities.

I don't know, Champions has been around for almost 30 years and has been beaten on by stat-geeks probably more than D&D and most players seem to think it works just fine. Point-systems are abusable, sure, but after some public exposure and an edition or two they seem to work pretty well. Champions 4th is 20 years old so it may have changed somewhat for the better since then.

Otoh I feel that 1e AD&D ought to have had some sort of system for determining how many magic items the typical PC has at a given level. Gary spends a lot of time in 1e talking about how vital it is to avoid the Scylla and Charybdis of Killer DM-ing and Monty Haul-ism. Yet at no point does he give us a metric. At no point does he spell out how many PC deaths make a Killer DM (assuming average player skill) or what quantity of giveaway makes a Monty Haul DM. It seems to me rather pointless to talk about it at all if no metric is provided.

Monty-Haul is easy to spot in most cases, the Killer DM is more tied to player expectations IME. It was probably worth more discussion and it was - mostly in Dragon. As far as D&D I think more abstract guidelines actually work better than trying to make a mathematically precise system where the designer doesn't know the players nor does he know the situation. More precision = more likely to be broken as in my giant-slayer sword example. Something like "10th level characters might typically have 10 magic items. Fighters will have a weapon, armor, a shield or a backup weapon, a ring, 2 miscellaneous items, and 4 or 5 potions or scrolls." Something like that for 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th has some value. Items have a lot of power relative to inherent character power in 1E/2E so anything detailed is going to be really really tricky. If we're about to invade the homebrew 9th level adventure Tomb of the Vampire King then a mace of disruption is a pretty big deal and makes the cleric a nastier fighter, possibly counting as a level or two higher than he really is. Next adventure is Against the Giants and now it's basically a +1 mace, kind of a crappy weapon against large creatures compared to even a +1 Longsword. That kind of variability is tough to account for in a system designed to balance overall combat capabilities.

Plus, assuming you do put a ton of work into figuring this out what is the benefit? Remember the mindset at the time of 1E was that we were trying to simulate a fantasy world in some respects. Areas of the countryside weren't necessarily zoned by level. Players were expected to know the difference between an ogre and a troll and whether they could take one on or not - running away was an acceptable response to "You see 2 trolls coming down the road." The idea that all encounters should be fair or balanced did not exist at the time. Rigorous analysis of the math was not going to happen because most players didn't care - it wasn't an aspect of the game that mattered to most players or DM's.

Now with 3E/4E there is some positioning of "balance" as a selling point - well now of course you have to do some work in that are because you're promising it on the box. I thought both CR and Item cost worked alright as a guideline with 3E, but you have to know your party and the situation or it's worse than useless - it gives a false sense of balance that's potentially going to wreck your game. The DM is the control mechanism that makes it work.

I've only recently started running 4E so I can't say a whole lot about it but setting all levels to the same scale - level 1 character is even with a level 1 monster and would typically have a level 1 item - certainly smooths out the granularity. Even there the situational variables can still make a big difference. For example, typed damage should be a part of the game but if the party is great at taking and dishing out fire & cold but runs into something with some variable resistances that dishes out toxic or necrotic damage then they are fighting at a lower level than what's on the label and it could get tricky. Items and powers both play a part there and in some ways that part is no different than the older versions of the game - you still need to know your players and their characters to really keep an eye on things.
 

At a minimum, in 2e, I always assumed that players had what the "followers" of the Fighter sub-class were allowed to have in terms of magical wealth.
 

Into the Woods

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