OMG Fireball, Noooooooooooo!

[Plane Sailing]

!!!

!!!!!!!!

This sparks lots of potential questions...

 

[Szatany]

The average of 1d6 is 3.5. So, 3d6 +2/level means that fireball are even less a threat than with 3e.

At 30th level 3e fireball deals 35 damage, and this new fireball deals 70.5

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

The math thing bugs me enormously. Analysing 3e, it's obvious that it doesn't scale linearly and that's why quite a few problems arise. Take a simple example like Cure X Wounds - you might have gained 2d8 + 2xCon hitpoints, but your best healing spell has only gained 1d8 + 2, which scales terribly.

Indications that they're moving to one spell level, per level (my how confusing), means that it's likely everything will go up by one each level. I think I'd prefer +1 per two levels, which could also work depending on how they're doing spellcasting. They will have to tone down the power creep that comes from stat increases, magic items and overpowered spells. Is there anyone who hasn't banned Glibness because of the absurd number involved?

As for fireball, it's a shame it's changing, but change can be good. Remember the old Magic Missile? If it isn't 1d6/level then maybe everything isn't going up by one every level? The (spell level)d6 + caster level looks most likely to me.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

It could totally backfire.

You had a 50% chance to hit the monster at level 1, 10 and level 20.

You have a 60% chance to disarm the trap at each level.

Um, didn't you get better? Yes, its a tougher monster, but then you won't feel like you improved. 4 orcs, 4 ogres, 4 giants, 4 dragons. The combats all "feel" about the same. Its just the fluff. You could keep the same crunch at each level, and call it by different fluff.

Wyatt should read the arguments about "The DC = APL+15" in RPGA mod design. Means the high level guys have as tough a time doing things as the low level guys.

I think it is more like this:

At level X, you have a 50% to hit a monster of Difficulty X
At level X, you have a 60% chance to disarm a trap of Difficulty X
etc..

I would be shocked if a Level 5 character did not have a near 100% chance of nailing a Level 1 monster.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[JoeGKushner]

Of course, there's more to the sweet spot problem than just the math. The proliferation of save-or-die effects and adventure-breaking effects like etherealness and scrying also makes high-level adventuring more difficult to pull off, and we've addressed those issues as well.

Heck, this is the part I['m more interested in.

Game breaking spells need to die and die horrible deaths.

 

[outsider]

It could totally backfire.

You had a 50% chance to hit the monster at level 1, 10 and level 20.

You have a 60% chance to disarm the trap at each level.

Um, didn't you get better? Yes, its a tougher monster, but then you won't feel like you improved. 4 orcs, 4 ogres, 4 giants, 4 dragons. The combats all "feel" about the same. Its just the fluff. You could keep the same crunch at each level, and call it by different fluff

I've actually got no problem with level not neccessarily making you better. I'm a firm believer that making good choices with the options granted to you from level ups should be what makes you more powerful.

Of course, even if you almost always face challenges that are equivalent to yourself, it's nice to know that those ogres that used to be so dangerous to you at level 4 really aren't a threat to you anymore. A good DM will throw in the occasional fight that the PCs can absolutely dominate. I remember one campaign my group got robbed by bandits when we were level one. It sure was satisfying running into those bandits again at level 10.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Game breaking spells need to die and die horrible deaths.

Do they get a save?

(ducks)

 

[The Souljourner]

The proliferation of save-or-die effects and adventure-breaking effects like etherealness and scrying also makes high-level adventuring more difficult to pull off, and we've addressed those issues as well.

Awesome. That's one of the major problems with higher level adventures.

As for fireball not doing 1d6 per level... who knows. I'm sure they wouldn't mess with it unless there were some good reason.

Here's my thinking - the people who are writing 4e love D&D, and they're going to do their best to make D&D awesome. They're not going to change fireball just because they can... they're changing it so it works better with the game, so the game itself works better.

I love what they said about needing to change the math behind the game, it's absolutely right. There's a ton of math going on in the background that previous editions barely even thought about. Guesswork, gut feelings, and yes, playtesting are what made the old editions playable. I'm really glad they're taking the guesswork and gut instinct out of the equation and really looking at the math behind the game. They're still going to playtest it. They're still going to get feedback from real people who play D&D and love it.

Just wait for the details to emerge, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe you house rule fireball back to 1d6/level.... but maybe, just maybe, you listen to their reasoning, and decide that their way is better. After all, it's not like they're getting rid of fireball, so in-game, it should feel just about the same, wizard points, things go boom, and all is right with the world.

-Nate

 

[Glyfair]

Well, there should still be variations in the EL from -5 APL to +5 APL, at least. That should keep things varied.

And I'm sure he was speaking in averages.

And the routine things get easier (and more things become routine). The barbarian might have trouble climbing the small cliff at 1st level, have no problems at 5th level, and at 20th level he's better than the Dread Pirate Roberts at climbing sheer huge cliffs!

 

[Aloïsius]

At 30th level 3e fireball deals 35 damage, and this new fireball deals 70.5

I'm not sure there will be no more level cap. This was an "improvement" of 3e. I guess we have already forgotten why they were there... Hum, something about higher level spells being more powerful than lower ones.