D&D General On Grognardism...

I sure hope folks agree with you there. Because one more pointless head-butting session is not a thing we need.



And, on this I think you may have hit a major point, that is neither good nor bad, but may be a major divider.

Look at all that focus on the DM. This older game is not really about playing "Dungeons and Dragons", so much as it is about playing "John the DM's game". The rules of these older games were not the major determiner of how the game played - the DM was.
Indeed. I feel the main point of contention is to what extent that makes it “the best version to play”? The answer is of course subjective.

To the old school, the rules did determine the basic framework, a sketch. The dm (to a much greater extent) and players had to detail, shade and colour in.

That is both a strength and weakness. “Do you want to come play AD&D?” Was almost a meaningless question because you still didn’t necessarily know what you were going to get. I can certainly see why there was a desire for more consistency. Especially when you did have bad DM’s that weren’t internally consistent or just being malicious.

The new school prefer things more codified, laid out and explicit. This ensures consistency, but introduces a rigidity that fans of the old school find stifling.

I feel both have their positives and negatives , I can critique and praise both approaches, but probably plant my self more in the OSR (though I do enjoy dabbling in PF2 when I’m feeling in a crunchy mood).

Alas, some people seem to plant themselves firmly in a camp and hold their subjective viewpoint as the one true way, damn the others :(
 

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S'mon

Legend
This is pretty hilarious. You think these two people, one of whom explicitly wants to exclude entire groups of people from RPGs (or only allow them to play on his terms), and sneers at the people who make up the bulk of 5E's players, gave "good advice"? I mean jeeeeeeesus mate. There's opinions and then there's Opinions(TM). And this is the latter.

If either of them is consulted for 6E, and that information gets out, that's going to actually, genuinely hurt 6E's sales. Does that relate to their behaviour more than their design? Sure, but they were already behaving that way in 2014, and both of them themselves make intentional links between their behaviour and their design. It's part of their "thing".

And yeah, 5E did get good advice - from the five extremely experienced game-designers there. Not from that pair of noobs. I very much doubt any perceived "OSR elements" in 5E come from those two - I think it was pre-determined by WotC when they decided to make 5E an apology edition/edition to try and get people back that they'd be having a fair bit of backwards-looking stuff and try to disguise some of the more modern design - which ironically lead to some of the worst compromises in 5E, like the underdeveloped, almost vestigial "Hit Dice" system.

Not sure what you mean by "explicitly wants to exclude entire groups of people from RPGs (or only allow them to play on his terms)" but you certainly seem to have a bee in your bonnet on this!

All I'd say re developing 6e is that WoTC would do well to consult with Justin Alexander, who has remarkable insight into a variety of play modes including OSR.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
World shattering powers in the hands of PCs belong in some genres - if you want to play Dragonball Zeta or Marvel Superheroes (and I'm not calling either a bad thing) then world-shattering powers are part of the genre. But I'm struggling to think of a single work of high fantasy that's not D&D-derived fiction where world-shattering powers are the norm. Even if we go to Harry Potter levels of ubiquitous magic there isn't that much they do that's world shattering.
Brandon Sanderson’s Cosmere comes to mind. The conflicts at the end of Words of Radiance and Oathbringer are way off the scale.
 

Exactly - and this is an under-acknowledged point.

It's really weird, because like, twenty years ago, no-one would fail to note that, nor failed to note that many DMs were in fact adversarial, rather than fair-handed.

But here we have a bunch of people acting as if every table back in the day was run by some totally fair DM who absolutely was a "fan of the characters" (a distinctly new-school notion), and that any deviation from that was weird - when in fact that was pretty rare to see. I mean, of the DMs I played with from 1989 to 1999, only me, my brother, and one specific friend could remotely been have described that way. And I played with quite a few DMs in that period.

Fair enough - I've been avoiding getting between you guys lol.

I mean to me it looked like you were saying modern editions disempower players due to codified abilities, but I think I can pretty much objectively illustrate that is not overall sweep of things (though individual mechanics sometimes do!), because D&D and indeed all the RPGs I can off-hand think of have retained the ability for players to describe what their characters are doing, and to use dice only when randomization is needed. If players were FORCED to roll by new-school games, then there would be a starker divide.

I think the real biggest issue with old-school stuff for me was the double-standard, where casters were empowered, and everyone else had to, Blanche DuBois-stylez, "rely on the kindness of strangers" (or rather the DM).

It's notable that in a lot of more modern OSR-based design, non-caster classes do actually tend to have waaaaaaaay more codified abilities than they did "back in the day" (even than in 2E), and casters tend to have fewer spells, with narrower applications and more drawbacks, to prevent this double-standard being such an issue. Thinking of Worlds Without Number for example, esp. the "advanced" classes. The rules in general there tend to empower players more and the DM less than actual games did back in the day, and I think that's a good thing.

But certainly, let's be clear - I feel like the circle has been mended almost. Like, in 2E, I loved that players could narrate what they wanted to do, and I could use simple rules for it, but as a player, I hated, loathed, abhorred dealing with DMs who didn't want to play that way, which was, in my experience, the slight majority of DMs (not the very first one I played with, thankfully). And now a lot of modern games manage to have a situation where it's still very much about a player saying what they want to do, and applying simple rules, but it's much more consistent, and the players are much empowered, and the DM is much more clearly delineated in their role, and much more clearly directed to be a fan of the characters, not there to ruin their day or whatever.
Absolutely. There is plenty of nuance to be had in this discussion. I still stand by my viewpoint that as a generalism codified abilities and skills disempower the players. I accept there maybe different viewpoints and exceptions to it. Indeed, older games could be guilty of this practice too if abused (hellos NWPs).

I get what you’re saying about the need for codification. I wasn’t there “back in the day” to experience a tyranny of bad DMing.

Ironically, I think today’s society is better for the old school approach because there’s now just so much Damned good advice easily available for being an Impartial Referee who won’t “coddle” the players but still “roots for them”. This just wasn’t as easy to access in the day.
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Weird pacing?
a shorthand way of talking about the weird balance issues between short-rest and long-rest based classes. I've always been more concerned about intra-party balance (the GM can always add more/less monsters).

Basically, if you have situations where you only have one or two encounters a day, classes like the paladin can really go nova and clobber things, much more so than the short rest classes which have a "shallow" pool of resources. This smaller pool is balanced by the fact that they regain them on a short rest.

I solved those issues by increasing the number of encounters per day. The cleric and paladin now had to hold back a bit more, allowing the monk and warlock to shine more.

I could elaborate further, but this issue has been discussed here several times.
 


jgsugden

Legend
A lot of people seem to have a misunderstanding of high fantasy. It is not all about the earth shattering magic. I used that as one example of high fantasy, not as the defining feature. When I referenced it WITH Lord of the Rings, I was referencing two things. Not one.

A better way to rephrase what I was saying: 4E was very cookie cutter with most offensive abilities some variation on (damage + condition/benefit). The overly structured and repetitive nature of it felt more like menu shopping than story telling to many, many, many players that posted over and over during and after 4E. It was widely discussed and recognized.

4E is over structured. Earlier editions were more free form and less structured. 5E moved us back from the overstructuring and found a happier middle ground.
 
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Ha! Probably my favorite little feature of 5E! I love that HD had uses now. That's enough for me.
Oh it's cute, let's not pretend that it isn't lol. But vestigial as hell. There was so much you could do with it, but it's just a crude compromise in the end and screams "we ran out of time" design-wise, to me anyway! :)

Absolutely. There is plenty of nuance to be had in this discussion. I still stand by my viewpoint that as a generalism codified abilities and skills disempower the players. I accept there maybe different viewpoints and exceptions to it. Indeed, older games could be guilty of this practice too if abused (hellos NWPs).
I mean, you're kind of getting at a point between RP and G here, which I don't everyone really thinks through.

No codification at all is essentially "pure" role-playing. No rules even. No DM/ref maybe. Just people telling a story together.

But that's not an RPG in any meaningful sense, that's just RP. We saw this a lot on the early internet - the clash of people who wanted to play RPGs online, and people who just wanted to RP, and didn't want the G.

Codification is essentially what the G is. All the rules are codification. There's no bright line between saying "this is how you make an attack role" or "this is how many actions you can have in turn", and "my ability Hawkwind Blade pushes you back 2 squares and does 2d8+STR damage" or "I fire 3 magic missiles each automatically hitting and doing 1d4+1 damage". That's all the same thing.

In a sense, your generalization is right in that, in pure RP, the "players" (who aren't quite players in the sense we'd mean), who have no codification to deal with, are totally free/empowered. But then you bring the snake into this garden of eden - the DM, the ref. Once you've put him in, you've privileged him over the players, and you've shifted power from the players, to him. They are disempowered by the codification that the DM is "in charge", and will determine whether their RP takes effect.

So that first codification, eating the apple if you will, is hugely disempowering, which aligns with what you're saying. All the power is taken from the players, and given to the DM. All of it, every ounce.

However after that, pretty much all codification, even DM-side rules, ultimately shifts the balance back towards the players, because it limits what can happen, and the players can still request the DM to do things, but they also have other options, which he kind of has to agree with. A DM can't just say "Your magic missile doesn't work", without like actually engaging with the fiction and giving a reason why, for example. To do so would break the social contract between both parties, where without codification, it would not.

I think what the point of confusion some people have is that individual rules can be quite restrictive. But once you know they exist, you can work within their framework, and the DM is also restricted by them. 3E is a superb example of this. It's rules effectively massively restricted what martial players could do, relative to what they could do with a good-natured DM in 2E. But even for them, they could work within the rules and make more demands of the DM than they could in 2E. That's just not arguable, it's demonstrable fact. That's a unarguable power-shift the players. More codified abilities, even weak ones, for the players, means more actual power for the players. Power. Let's be specific here. Power. It's bit like rights - yeah, if you have no written rights, you could be treated incredibly well. If you have pretty pathetic rights, you could extremely poorly OR extremely well, but the baseline is higher than with no rights at all. With no rights at all, you can be treated in any way - eventually the social contract is broken of course, and that's also true with RPGs, but history of the real-world and RPGs shows people can be pushed incredibly far before they actually snap and leave games and so on.

And older versions of D&D show this interesting double-standard where some PCs have a ton of rights, via being casters, and others have basically no rights beyond "the right to hit someone with a sword for 1d8 damage". If you look at 4E, at combat, the players are unarguably more empowered than, say, 3E, and there are two angles to this - first off every class is empowered in that they all have codified abilities, and can tell the DM what happens, rather than merely asking him, and rather than only some classes being able to do that. Second off, they still have the ability to request the DM to do stuff outside that - this was an interestingly frequent misconception re: 4E, the idea that you literally couldn't do anything not on your character sheet in combat. It's objectively and non-arguably false. 4E explicitly calls out that you can do this, that you can ask the DM, and even has optional and extremely numerically generous table that the DM can use to adjudicate how much damage your non-fixed actions might do and so on, or what effects they might have. This is why 4E is sort of regarded as a "wargame" in some ways - a type of game where both sides are equally empowered. Because in combat, that was basically the case. Outside combat, things were less-different to previous editions.

As for your point re: modern environments being more suited to older school stuff - yes absolutely agree, but it's kind of half the picture, because you're still looking at what is basically a "trust-fall" or "consensual BDSM"-type situation. Yeah there's much better advice/resources for everyone involved so things typically go better (I still laugh every time I see a guy going on about his "old-school" game and how he's a "fan of the PCs", not because that's wrong, but because it's so different to the common experience back in the day), but lack of codification still means there's a distinct double-standard, and if the DM falters at all in certain respects it will disproportionately impact the players on the wrong side of that double-standard.

Sorry for waffling on about this, I think it's pretty interesting.
 

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