D&D General On simulating things: what, why, and how?

[payn]

When it comes to leveling, there has to be a certain granularity to people improving their skills so I've never had an issue with it. On the other hand, I agree that people may refer to someone as a green fighter or an archmage, but they have no clue what a level is. Or hit points, or specific AC or any number of other things.

The pace at which PCs level is another issue entirely.

To me the typical D&D leveling system is like learning how to ride a skateboard. You first have to be able to balance on it. Then, you learn to kick push and turn. Eventually, you learn how to land jumps and perform tricks. The problem is most folks want to hit the half pipe immediately. They imagine awesome jumps and sweet tricks and write backstories about being the next Tony Hawk. They don't want to talk about granny buying them their first board for their b-day and how often they scrapped their knees along the way. Also, it break immersion of getting their first board and killing the half pipe a week later. There really is no way to come to terms with it but to just ignore it IMHO.

 

[Oofta]

To me the typical D&D leveling system is like learning how to ride a skateboard. You first have to be able to balance on it. Then, you learn to kick push and turn. Eventually, you learn how to land jumps and perform tricks. The problem is most folks want to hit the half pipe immediately. They imagine awesome jumps and sweet tricks and write backstories about being the next Tony Hawk. They don't want to talk about granny buying them their first board for their b-day and how often they scrapped their knees along the way. Also, it break immersion of getting their first board and killing the half pipe a week later. There really is no way to come to terms with it but to just ignore it IMHO.

In most of my home campaigns, months if not years pass between levels after the first level or two. People need a significant amount of time to train and improve their skills. Depending on the campaign we also narrate downtime activities that sometimes involve ongoing combat encounters, just at a lower risk level than in our gaming sessions.

But I recognize that it's pretty atypical to do it that way.

 

[billd91]

Simulation is one of the foundations on which all RPGs are based, even if people don't like to admit it. A basic connection to the real world is the basis for all consistency and communication. It doesn't matter if it's a game about powerful wizards or mice that fight like knights, when you sit down and learn about a TTRPG for the first time, you come to the table with certain expectations about how the world works; those expectations are based on reality.

Every RPG is a simulationist RPG. Something like gravity exists and you don't have to worry about your character floating off the ground. Characters commuicate in a language that the player understands. When something hits something else, there is reaction. Nobody starts writing a TTRPG rulebook by completely redefining the entire world.

I think there are classes of RPGs where that isn't strictly true - not from the rules at any rate. As with chaochou's post, there are games where the mechanics are about other aspects of resolution - stakes, narrative, yadda yadda - and not anything really simulative about the interaction of the PCs with the environment and things like gravity, solid walls, food, etc. Each of those games will exist within an assumed reality that has some congruence with our own, but there generally aren't rules that govern that. Those are just things assumed by the players.

That said, I think you're right about TTRPGs that aren't part of that subset. They probably have something about the ability to interact with/damage the surrounding environment, fall off of things, getting/not getting a decent night's sleep, etc that are based on simulative nods to how things work in reality or the genre that governs the game - with varying degrees of abstraction.

 

[payn]

In most of my home campaigns, months if not years pass between levels after the first level or two. People need a significant amount of time to train and improve their skills. Depending on the campaign we also narrate downtime activities that sometimes involve ongoing combat encounters, just at a lower risk level than in our gaming sessions.

But I recognize that it's pretty atypical to do it that way.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't like going from level 1 to 20 in 90 days of real life or game time. Though, I dont want to go from level 1 to 5 in 5 years of real life time either.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't like going from level 1 to 20 in 90 days of real life or game time. Though, I dont want to go from level 1 to 5 in 5 years of real life time either.

As long as it's not a long time in RL it's totally ok to have long periods of game time between levels. You just have to structure your campaign to allow for it.

I really want to make more use of downtime in my games anyway. One of the many great things about Level Up is the attention they spend on this aspect of the game (in addition to a more simulationist bent in general).

 

[Mannahnin]

But when it comes to fantasy rpgs, all these concepts are meaningless from the start. What exists is make believe, the range of outcomes are inventions. There are no demonstrable limitations. There is no 'simulation' of what happens when a small white dragon lands on the roof of a house. The answer has to be made up by someone, and the other participants have to agree. That's all there is to it. Make-believe creature, make-believe house, make-believe outcome.

The illusion of simulation is created by creating great libraries of numbers in statblocks and pretending they represent a reality. But all those statblocks are invention. They can't be tested against anything, so they can't ever be right or wrong. They can be agreed to or not agreed to, but that's not a test of simulation - that's a test of whether the invented mechanics meet the aesthetic preferences of the group.

Certainly to some extent this is true. But in many ways we're still inevitably going to apply our Invisible Rulebooks.

If the stat block for the dragon says it weighs five tons, and the DM describes it as such, then when it lands on the roof of the house, the players' minds are generally going to process "thing that weighs five tons perched on roof top", with likely some impact on how they react to the scene. Perhaps I envision the roof as groaning and creaking under the weight. Perhaps I upgrade my previous imagination of just how big and sturdy the house is. Perhaps I ask the DM "Does the rooftop creak or break under the weight", with an eye toward suspecting it's an illusion if he says "No, not that you can see."

I definitely agree that the degree to which we can apply real-world physics and similar life experience and knowledge is reduced by the fantastic and the magical, but I think it's something we tend to do anyway, and I think a design tends to be easier to "grok" if it tries to be compatible with our Invisible Rulebooks where possible. I think this is generally a rule of thumb for fantasy and speculative fiction too, isn't it? That the world works the way our world does, unless and except where specified otherwise?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Certainly to some extent this is true. But in many ways we're still inevitably going to apply our Invisible Rulebooks.

If the stat block for the dragon says it weighs five tons, and the DM describes it as such, then when it lands on the roof of the house, the players' minds are generally going to process "thing that weighs five tons perched on roof top", with likely some impact on how they react to the scene. Perhaps I envision the roof as groaning and creaking under the weight. Perhaps I upgrade my previous imagination of just how big and sturdy the house is. Perhaps I ask the DM "Does the rooftop creak or break under the weight", with an eye toward suspecting it's an illusion if he says "No, not that you can see."

I definitely agree that the degree to which we can apply real-world physics and similar life experience and knowledge is reduced by the fantastic and the magical, but I think it's something we tend to do anyway, and I think a design tends to be easier to "grok" if it tries to be compatible with our Invisible Rulebooks where possible. I think this is generally a rule of thumb for fantasy and speculative fiction too, isn't it? That the world works the way our world does, unless and except where specified otherwise?

Exactly. This is why I don't understand people who say they hate simulation. What exactly are they objecting to?

 

[payn]

As long as it's not a long time in RL it's totally ok to have long periods of game time between levels. You just have to structure your campaign to allow for it.

I really want to make more use of downtime in my games anyway. One of the many great things about Level Up is the attention they spend on this aspect of the game (in addition to a more simulationist bent in general).

Downtime is another concept that I'm not sure is sim or just immersion based. It's never had a strong appeal to me. I'd rather focus on happenings of substance than shopping, training, or interior decorating. YMMV.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Downtime is another concept that I'm not sure is sim or just immersion based. It's never had a strong appeal to me. I'd rather focus on happenings of substance than shopping, training, or interior decorating. YMMV.

There are a lot more things you can do with downtime than you listed here. Research, crafting, making contacts, working, getting in with a patron, those are just some of them. If you always want to get to the action, of course, that's your preference. But I prefer a world that feels like it could be a real place.

 

[Mannahnin]

Downtime is another concept that I'm not sure is sim or just immersion based. It's never had a strong appeal to me. I'd rather focus on happenings of substance than shopping, training, or interior decorating. YMMV.

Downtime can and should include happenings of substance, though. Meaningful decisions. Gathering of information, building of resources, training, engaging in longer-term activities like building alliances and political support, magical research, etc.

I do like using downtime and fleshing it out to be more enjoyable and meaningful, in part to address the issue of PCs rocketing up in levels in a very short time in game. If I can stretch out how much time the campaign covers, that's less of an issue. The downtime should be enjoyable and interesting, though, and resolved quickly anywhere it's not!