One creature in burst and concealment

[Anthony Jackson]

This came up Keep on the Shadowfell (I may have made other errors, but it's irrelevant to the question at hand):

I was playing the dragonborn paladin and hit the gnome sneak, who vanished. I then said I was going to use paladin's challenge to mark him, which got me a funny look from the DM, but seems legal. From what I can tell:

• Divine Challenge is a close burst 5.
• Burst effects ignore invisibility.

Normally, this makes sense, but in the case of a "single target in burst" effect, it has an odd effect. The DM wound up ruling that I had to target a square (which I did), which didn't seem terribly unreasonable to me, but I'd be curious about people's take on the official way to handle this.

Other oddities:
If a Swarm takes damage from Divine Challenge, does it count as a burst effect and thus trigger the swarm's vulnerability?

Does a swarm's aura attack set off Divine Challenge? More generally, do auras set off divine challenge? For that matter, if you create a zone that attacks everyone in the area, does maintaining the zone set off divine challenge?

 

[Paul Strack]

Following the RAW, I think you are right. There is nothing in there that requires you to be able to see the target.

I think it is an oversight, though. All the other PC abilities like this (Combat Challenge, Hunter's Quarry, Warlock Curse, etc.) require that you either hit or are able to see your target. As a DM, I would house rule that Divine Challenge requires that you can see your target.

As for aura attacks, following the RAW, yes they would trigger Divine Challenge. I think I am OK with that. The swarm would have to charge the Paladin or suffer the damage. The Paladin has to engage the target to maintain the challenge, so if the Paladin backs away from the aura, the Challenge drops anyway.

 

[Asmor]

By the RAW, it seems like you're right.

By a "common sense" approach, I'd say in general that wouldn't work (for example, I'd rule a cleric couldn't use healing word, another 1-target-in-burst power, on an invisible ally without somehow being able to detect said ally), but in your case I'd allow it since it would make sense to say that, in "real" terms, the dragon's breath and challenge are the same "real" action (not using the game term action here, but the dictionary definition of the word).

 

[ac_noj]

From what I can tell:

• Divine Challenge is a close burst 5.
• Burst effects ignore invisibility.

Other oddities:
If a Swarm takes damage from Divine Challenge, does it count as a burst effect and thus trigger the swarm's vulnerability?

Does a swarm's aura attack set off Divine Challenge? More generally, do auras set off divine challenge? For that matter, if you create a zone that attacks everyone in the area, does maintaining the zone set off divine challenge?

When in doubt, stick with the rules as written unless you have a very good reason not to and flavor is almost never a good reason. For example, according to official ruling you can knock an Ooze prone. Use the rules and make up the flavor, and if it still seems wrong the DM can give it +2/-2.

So long as your character has reason to believe that the target is within that 5-foot area, I would be happy to allow it.

You're Divine Challenge is a close burst so swarms are vulnerable to it's damage, and it's aura attack certainly triggers that damage.

 

[DracoSuave]

Wow, you're right it -does- make seperate basic attacks for each bloke in its aura! Good eye.

 

[yu gnomi]

I had no idea that this oddity regarding swarms and divine challenge existed until now. I agree with everything people have said, except possibly for the swarm's being vulnerable to Divine Challenge damage.

Divine Challenge is a class feature, not an attack power (even though it does damage). I don't know if vulnerability to burst attacks applies. RAW are less than 100% clear.

 

[Danceofmasks]

It seems to work, by RAW. Attack power or no, it's a close burst, and swarm rules don't care if it's attack.
However, swarms take extra damage because close/area effects hit multiple members of their swarm, due to those powers being able to hit multiple creatures. I seriously doubt it is supposed to work by RAI.

 

[ac_noj]

Divine Challenge is a class feature, not an attack power (even though it does damage). I don't know if vulnerability to burst attacks applies. RAW are less than 100% clear.

It's fairly straight forward: Divine Challenge is a Close Burst. It does damage. Swarms take extra damage when hurt by Close Bursts.

The game is supposed to be fun, you don't have to be able to justify everything that happens with the laws of physics. If the effect doesn't seem to fit the flavor make up a new flavor, otherwise you're going to spend half your play time arguing about things that are clearly laid out in the rules.

For example, you could argue endlessly about whether or not this burst should hurt a rat swarm. Some people will go so far as work out how much damage the swarm should take assuming one rat is challenged and there are X rats in the swarm.
OR the DM could say "The rats move as if they are of one mind, and as you roar out your challenge it falls apon all of them, SEARING THEIR CORRUPT BODIES WITH DIVINE LIGHT!"

My way is faster, and 100 times more fun.

 

[Oompa]

Well.. its quite simple with the gnome and his concealment..

Concealment doesnt mean you do not see him..

And from divine challenge:

Even though this ability is called a challenge, it doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature.​

Even if i couldnt see the creature it would still be affected, as said, its magical and affects the creature, willing or not..

But what if there are more creatures in the burst?

An bit metagamy but then you chose any creature within the burst..

 

[Danceofmasks]

Not that big a deal IMO .. if you know something is there, but can't see it, feel free to challenge it.
If at the end of turn you haven't engaged it, DC falls off.