One of the group is buying the Book of Nine Swords. What should I expect?

[MerricB]

That many maneuvers/stances/strikes have effects similar to, and often better than, fighter feats ... mmm ... Whirlwind Attack is the end of a chain, and not always useful. Mithral Tornado is the same thing 'but better'. Again, not always useful, but lower in opportunity costs and able to be swapped out when you have a few moments and know the next fight is going to focus on one big badguy ... while the Fighter is stuck with his Whirlwind Attack feat.

Hmm. This is particularly interesting. Let's look at the differences:

Fighter
- gains access to Whirlwind Attack at level 6
- gains no attack bonus when using Whirlwind Attack
- may use Whirlwind Attack in every combat
- may use Whirlwind Attack every round of combat
- may not change selection of Whirlwind Attack
- may only make a 5' step before WA. (Full attack action to initiate)

Warblade
- gains access to Mithral Tornado at level 7
- gains a +2 attack bonus when using Mithral Tornado
- may only use Mithral Tornado if prepared before combat
- may use Mithral Attack every second round of combat (at most)
- may ready other manuevers in place of Mithral Tornado
- may make a normal move before WA. (standard action to initiate)

I don't think you can say that Mithral Tornado is strictly better (that is, better in all facets) than Whirlwind Attack. The key problem it has is that it can't be used every round - in combats where WA is useful, you normally want to use it several rounds in a row!

Being able to prepare manuevers with foreknowledge of opponents is nice, but IME you often don't know exactly what the next combat is. (The warblade is also quite limited in choice of manuevers). So, say you have a selection of ones useful against different foes. Then you only get one or two manuevers off before having to revert to a normal set of attacks before starting again - and the Fighter is superior with normal attacks.

(Of course, the Warblade also suffers quite badly from MAD. Str, Dex, Con and Int are all required!)

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Personally, the way I'd really like to use the book would be to allow stance/maneuver in through Fighter feats, giving the Fighter a bit of a power-up that he's been needing (even with PHBII), but not use the base classes at all.

It's sort of there already.

Martial Stance - fighter bonus feat, gives access to a stance.
Martial Study - fighter bonus feat, gives access to a manuever and a new class skill, limit 3 times. The initiator level restriction does stop fighters getting the highest level powers, however. As you're mostly giving up your iterative attacks for the extra damage strikes, they're rarely worth it; you need more special manuevers.

Interestingly, if you allowed a fighter no limit on Martial Study feats, by 20th level they could have 18 manuevers... more than the Warblade normally gets!

Cheers!

 

[BryonD]

(Of course, the Warblade also suffers quite badly from MAD. Str, Dex, Con and Int are all required!)

Cheers!

STR, DEX, and CON are really no moreso than any other non-tank fighter.
STR impacts some saves, but you can build around that if you wish. Typically STR will be #1 for a melee build anyway, so usually no issue there.
I disagree regarding INT. The WB gains some nice perks for having a good INT. But is completely effective without bothering with them.
Getting perks for a high INT is just another customization option that adds to the whole WB package.

 

[Felon]

Wow, thats really insulting and I am offended.

Well, it's your god-given right to be indignant, but it's other people's right to express the opinion that it's irrational to consider the warblade balanced.

 

[Felon]

I don't think you can say that Mithral Tornado is strictly better (that is, better in all facets) than Whirlwind Attack. The key problem it has is that it can't be used every round - in combats where WA is useful, you normally want to use it several rounds in a row!

Being able to position oneself before using this type of attack is a huge advantage (especially if you have Tumble as a class skill, which the warblade does and the fighter doesn't). A fighter with WA basically usually hast to wait for the baddies to amass themselves around him. In general, it's very, very hard for a fighter to ever get more than one attack if he steps more than five feet (in fact, before the PHBII came out, I'd say it was darn near impossible).

Being able to prepare manuevers with foreknowledge of opponents is nice, but IME you often don't know exactly what the next combat is. (The warblade is also quite limited in choice of manuevers). So, say you have a selection of ones useful against different foes. Then you only get one or two manuevers off before having to revert to a normal set of attacks before starting again - and the Fighter is superior with normal attacks.

The fighter's not necessarily superior with "normal attacks"--I'm not even sure what that means exactly. If you're assuming every feat a figther has helps in any given round of combat, I certainly find that easy to dispute. A fighter with Power Attack and Combat Expertise and Improved Sunder and Improved Trip and Two-Weapon Fighting may wind up not using those or any other feats in a give round. And of course, "reverting to a nomral set of attacks before starting again" only constitutes a single round.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Hmm. This is particularly interesting. Let's look at the differences:

Fighter
- gains access to Whirlwind Attack at level 6
- gains no attack bonus when using Whirlwind Attack
- may use Whirlwind Attack in every combat
- may use Whirlwind Attack every round of combat
- may not change selection of Whirlwind Attack
- may only make a 5' step before WA. (Full attack action to initiate)

Warblade
- gains access to Mithral Tornado at level 7
- gains a +2 attack bonus when using Mithral Tornado
- may only use Mithral Tornado if prepared before combat
- may use Mithral Attack every second round of combat (at most)
- may ready other manuevers in place of Mithral Tornado
- may make a normal move before WA. (standard action to initiate)

I don't think you can say that Mithral Tornado is strictly better (that is, better in all facets) than Whirlwind Attack. The key problem it has is that it can't be used every round - in combats where WA is useful, you normally want to use it several rounds in a row!

It can't be used every round, but from what I've seen, you can't REALLY use WA several rounds in a row very often unless you're fighting tightly-packed mindless undead. Mooks either move out of the way to avoid it, or there aren't enough mooks to make it worth more than taking a full attack and getting the chance to use your full bonuses and Cleave, etc. The fighter usually moves into position, depending on his Mobility to protect him from the AoOs, and has to hope that the NEXT round the mooks are still in position, or willing to gang up on him, so he can pull it off.

Additionally, this is the end of one of the longest feat chains in (THE longest, I think) the core game. The Fighter has to have MAD (Dex 13, Int 13), as well as Dodge (the poor "opens 'powerful' feat chains" feat), so the entrance requirements are pretty stiff. It's a feat chain for a light-armored fighter (requires Spring Attack, Mobility) so the feats are additionally high-cost for the big-Str characters that would get best use of it. It's a powerful ability, no doubt about it, and the original designers put a LOAD of requirements and built-in limiters (MAD, feats, limited movement) to the one ability, while the WB gets to take it or not at their leisure.

And changing loadout for these guys doesn't require a full-day reboot like a wizard or cleric, they just "exercise" for 5-minutes, which can generally be done between encounters, even. "They seem to have alot of zombies milling about here ... just lemme limber up some ... and deep-knee-rock-squats!"

Being able to prepare manuevers with foreknowledge of opponents is nice, but IME you often don't know exactly what the next combat is. (The warblade is also quite limited in choice of manuevers). So, say you have a selection of ones useful against different foes. Then you only get one or two manuevers off before having to revert to a normal set of attacks before starting again - and the Fighter is superior with normal attacks.

How is the fighter superior with normal attacks? It's one standard action to refresh for the WB. Every feat that a fighter has won't come into play every round of every combat. Once in a while the fighter is going to move and take a standard attack himself without any feats at all ... if he were a WB, he'd be refreshing his super-juice while he did it.

It's one of the "insult to injury" deals ...

Another big one from the Warblade that just drives me up the wall is their ability to adjust their Weapon Focus every morning. Whoa. Weapon Focus and the like are the other Dodge, another cruddy feat that the fighter burns a slot on to get better bonuses later ... while for the Warblade all of those feat chains instead become "Any Weapon, Chosen 1/Day" ... making them useful. A greatsword-focused Fighter who finds a powerful longsword and shield has to choose between losing the use of many feats or selling that set and getting 1/2 value. A Warblade can choose to go Greatsword on Monday and Longsword/Shield on Tuesday for no further investiture of feats. The "fighter-only" set of Weapon Focus/GWF/Weapon Specialization is actually worth more to a Warblade than a fighter. I'll gladly wait two levels if my fighter can switch out his weapon specs every day.

--fje

 

[BryonD]

Another big one from the Warblade that just drives me up the wall is their ability to adjust their Weapon Focus every morning. Whoa. Weapon Focus and the like are the other Dodge, another cruddy feat that the fighter burns a slot on to get better bonuses later ... while for the Warblade all of those feat chains instead become "Any Weapon, Chosen 1/Day" ... making them useful. A greatsword-focused Fighter who finds a powerful longsword and shield has to choose between losing the use of many feats or selling that set and getting 1/2 value. A Warblade can choose to go Greatsword on Monday and Longsword/Shield on Tuesday for no further investiture of feats. The "fighter-only" set of Weapon Focus/GWF/Weapon Specialization is actually worth more to a Warblade than a fighter. I'll gladly wait two levels if my fighter can switch out his weapon specs every day.

--fje

Nods

I knew that was out for me before I even read through the rest of the class well enough to digest the larger problems.
There is a bit of a balance problem here. But the FLAVOR problem is what I really dislike about it.

But, of course, the fighter has the customization and flexibility advatage....

 

[Felon]

But, of course, the fighter has the customization and flexibility advatage....

LOL!

 

[MerricB]

How is the fighter superior with normal attacks?

When both the fighter and WB need to make a round of normal attacks, the fighter is generally superior, if only due to the earlier acquisition of the Specialisation feat chain.

The chain (let me know if I missed a feat or two
1st: Weapon Focus
4th: Weapon Specialisation
8th: Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery
9th: Improved Critical
12th: Greater Weapon Specialisation
18th: Weapon Supremacy

Although the Warblade can, in theory, take this feat chain, it is severely squeezed by requiring regular feats to take them, and the levels required being increased.

Cheers!

 

[Nifft]

A Fighter who's gunning for damage is always going to lose (to a Barbarian, for starters). Fighters gain advantage in taking complex feat chains, like the infamous Spiked Chain Trip Monster (tm):

Power Attack
XWP (spiked chain)
WF (spiked chain)
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes

... is the bare minimum for this technique, and you'll want to get this combo ASAP. Six feats are not a problem for a Human Fighter (level 4 you'll have all of them), but they are a problem for most other characters.

Are Fighters still kinda weak? IMHO, yes. Fighters are great for 1, 2 or 4 level dips, but not much else.

Cheers, -- N