One of the group is buying the Book of Nine Swords. What should I expect?

[BryonD]

Seriously, go find a thread on warblades and challenge the number cruching.
If you want to do that then fine.

But if you are going to just call for me to mathematically re-prove my points without showing the slightest hint of objective analysis yourself then I'm not going to bother paying any further attention.

 

[Thanatos]

There are lots of threads that exist on the warblade and number crunching...here and at wizards...which shows them to be powerful, but not overpowered by any means. There are plenty of example builds comparing the two as well and show that, per round, fighters and barbarians can do as much damage as they can.

So, the mathmatics I've seen don't bear out what you claim they do as fact.

I guess what is proven is that number-crunching and math, like a poll -- can show what someone wants it to. We went in testing as unopinionated as we could, not with the idea these classes were overpowered and needed a nerf before we began.

So a magic item which provided +20 to hit skewed how well avalanche of blades worked for that oppoent? That really isn't surprising since items like that can easily make attacks become more powerful then they would otherwise. That's not really a standard application of that maneuver and not really a fair way to judge it.

 

[pawsplay]

I think the +20 bonus is a good example of something, though... B9S is D&D with the lid off. Some of the manuevers can have very unpredictable results, like the White Raven tactics tag-term, Avalanche of Blades being horrifyingly unbounded in situations where you have a substantial bonus to hit. I'm not saying that's wrong, the or the classes are not and cannot be balanced.

But I think it's clear that B9S adds some "KAZAM! You're dead!" that wasn't there before. High level maneuvers are very comparable to high level spells in the way they can completely transform a battle. And mathematically, they're very different from other things in the game. Frequently, where a D&D spell or feat will include some prohibition that bounds it, B9S does not. An endlessly iterative attack that only requires you to keep hitting just requires someone to come up with a special circumstance where you won't miss, and then, the lid comes off.

 

[Kishin]

I think it is absurd to stretch my words to hyperbole.

I think it is within the definition of hyperbole. But let's not start pasting Webster's Dictionary into the thread.

shrug. You left out a few pieces of the character. You are way short of challenging the point.

I don't need much more than the fact that he took Monkey Grip to prove your Kensai wasn't well built, sorry.

Check your PH.

All druids are not created equal. Elaboration is required.

Wrong.

Whatever you say.

One attack. And then another one attack and another one attack and another one attack. The recovery is extremely simple.

One attack every other round. Hardly consistent. A decent Barbarian Power Attacking with a Greatsword can consistently out put equivalent amount of damage over the same amount of time, easily.

Are you saying I'm lying?

Level 20 char: +38 to hit (16 STR +5 for levels, +6 Enhance, +5 Inherent = 32)
+20 BAB + 11 STR +5 Sword +2 Greater Focus

Ran the Age of Worms final module. Includes an item for a +20 to hit vs Kyuss only.
I ran it exactly as written, so I'm comfortable with that.

As I said, this was the tip of the iceberg. The Kensai also received a minor artifact power up option and the comparison was clear. If my point was based on using the Warblade as written then I'd have no case. That it was nerfed and still excelled at all points throughout the module is a compelling case.

Being as a detailed "number crunching" of the WB HAS been presented in prior threads the need to reprove the point does not compel me.

The source of the issue here is not Avalanche of Blades, its a +20 to hit magic item. That's what caused the effect to be as it was. An experiment contaminated by outside influences, really. It's like saying a Wraithstriking melee character means melee is overpowered, rather than Wraithstrike. This does little to prove your point.

Also, no wonder your Kensai was ineffective. He was trying to trip Kyuss. His niche wasn't designed to handle that fight, so naturally, he paled before characters who could. I would also state that using Kyuss as the acid test is probably not the best idea.

As for previous 'number crunching', all you're doing is stated that has been presented, without providing evidence of that presentation. Link some of these threads that you feel lend support to your arguments. Quote a known figure from the CO boards (I'd love to see one state that a Warblade outclasses a Druid or any arcane caster).

Your argument is no clearer than it was before, considering you refuse to state half of it.

 

[Thanatos]

See, I don't know that I would really agree that its D&D with the lid off. Manuevers are really no different then spells when it comes to unpredictable results and with the proper magic items, feats or PrCs, even spells can be horrifying in their end result. Ultimately, it amounts to the same thing and I do agree, not all classes are balanced and there isn't any way to make them balanced against each other.

Since high level spells have always existed, I don't really think it adds in that "KAZAM" element, just expands it to include new melee classes into that fold. And on the other hand, maneuvers tend to be more limited in focus then most spells and feats, so that balances them against both.

But, given if someone sets up any kind of special circumstance, the lid can come off period.

 

[Storyteller01]

It's not hard to disagree with someone without being rude or offensive. Do so in the future, please.

Yes, please do. I do thank everyone for the feedback though.


It's a sort of open DM campaign based on MGP's immortals book. We wanted to start a soon to be high power eoic campaign dealing with the hidden society of immortals within normal society. Everyone starts at 14th level. As a vote we also decided to play it in Dragon Star (folks like the advantages being a half dragon [noble birth] ) so high tech will also be used.

Two of the classes are close combat. The player will be using the Bo9S, I'll be playing Skarn half-blue dragon monk with a 3rd party PrC that gains some spell casting and demonic bonuses/immunities.

The other is a red dragon per dragon mag.

The other two will be more war based with access to tech based armor and weapons (Higher AC, ranges of 2000 to 4000 feet at max range). Ones a tiefling half red barbarian sorcerer. She has a 3rd party PrC that allows her to sac spells to improve the rage. The other is an orc dragon shaman. Both have leadership and their own command. Storywise, they're well established soldiers in the military. The half dargon is an officer, the orc is the the equivalent of a major or colonel.

Needless to say, powergaming isn't a problem.


If anyone has experience in crossing materials, what problems do you think will pop up?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Two of the classes are close combat. The player will be using the Bo9S, I'll be playing Skarn half-blue dragon monk with a 3rd party PrC that gains some spell casting and demonic bonuses/immunities.

The other is a red dragon per dragon mag.

The warblade (or probably either of the other martial adepts) is going to utterly show up the Half-Dragon Monk and the Dragon Magazine Red Dragon at close combat fighting, so make sure to establish some other niche for your character to keep it interesting.

 

[Storyteller01]

The warblade (or probably either of the other martial adepts) is going to utterly show up the Half-Dragon Monk and the Dragon Magazine Red Dragon at close combat fighting, so make sure to establish some other niche for your character to keep it interesting.

The half dragon has some limited spell casting, so range may be better. The dragon has the advantage of diplomatic contacts. I'm not sure how I'll be usig tech, or how much he'll use. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Thanatos]

The martial adepts are pretty weak with ranged stuff as they only get melee ranged skills and when building one to be effective for melee, isn't going to be more then a moderate ranged attacker.

So, I don't think you will have to worry about any of the martial adepts utterly dominating combat, especially in a tech game. Sounds like you have players that shouldn't have any trouble building capable characters to keep things on equal ground in melee as well.

 

[MerricB]

If anyone has experience in crossing materials, what problems do you think will pop up?

Heh. Who knows? That's the fun of crossing materials - you never know what crazy things will pop up.

My gut reaction to Bo9S is that it's a lot of fun. To some extent, if it's in the campaign, the fighter class won't be used anyway, for the warblade fills pretty much the same role. (The warblade, as Thanatos notes, is useless at ranged, however).

If you're playing a half-dragon monk, you may want to invest in the feats that give a couple of manuevers to yourself. Sure, you won't have anywhere near the options of the full Bo9S character, but there may be some nice options there for you.

Cheers!