D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[CreamCloud0]

They are both given a wink and a nod that their supernatural abilities aren't supernatural even though they are essentially meta currency disguised as class features. They are also the only two classes that get lambasted for being weak and needing support in the form of items to survive.

I say "why wait?"

because, the entirely nonmagical warrior is a popular concept that people want to play, i don't want my power to be from the blood of gods or the spirits of my ancestors or a magic whatever i picked up, i don't want the supernatural to 'justify' why i can do the things i can do, i want it to be through my own blood, sweat and tears, through skill, steel and hard work, saying 'you can do these things cause supernatural happenstance looked favourably on you' totally undermines that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If it was up to me (it isn't, but oh, if it was!) then I'd probably only have about 1/3 of the character's overall power coming from selected character powers, with the remainder coming from magic items and other earned boons within the story.

That's not a super-popular view because players generally want to have much more control over their character's growth, but that's something I don't want in a D&D style game.

Right there with you.

 

[Micah Sweet]

because, the entirely nonmagical warrior is a popular concept that people want to play, i don't want my power to be from the blood of gods or the spirits of my ancestors or a magic whatever i picked up, i don't want the supernatural to 'justify' why i can do the things i can do, i want it to be through my own blood, sweat and tears, through skill, steel and hard work, saying 'you can do these things cause supernatural happenstance looked favourably on you' totally undermines that.

This is why you bring in that stuff later, when you really have no choice in order for things to make sense.

 

[CreamCloud0]

This is why you bring in that stuff later, when you really have no choice in order for things to make sense.

no, we will do it without the supernatural assistance, my character will become Just That Good to stand at that level without that stuff.

 

[Remathilis]

Because not everyone wants to play an explicitly supernatural character right out of the gate. Zero to hero is still a thing, until the game says it isn't. Say what you will about 4e, they didn't pretend they were something they weren't.

No D&D character is a zero. Maybe in the OSR days when you randomly rolled them up to feed to woodchipper dungeons in hopes of getting one to 2nd level, but not for a couple editions now. There is a place for that kind of play (both in the explicitly nonmagical and/or 0 to hero) but I don't think D&D is that place anymore. I'd rather see the fighter and rogue keep up with the other overtly supernatural classes then wallow in mediocrity for the sake of nostalgia.

 

[FrogReaver]

no, we will do it without the supernatural assistance, my character will become Just That Good to stand at that level without that stuff.

For many of us, that’s making him supernatural.

 

[Micah Sweet]

no, we will do it without the supernatural assistance, my character will become Just That Good to stand at that level without that stuff.

Doesn't make sense to me. Just that good doesn't do the job when you're fighting giant demons and ancient dragons. You need some kind of supernatural or technological edge.

 

[Remathilis]

because, the entirely nonmagical warrior is a popular concept that people want to play, i don't want my power to be from the blood of gods or the spirits of my ancestors or a magic whatever i picked up, i don't want the supernatural to 'justify' why i can do the things i can do, i want it to be through my own blood, sweat and tears, through skill, steel and hard work, saying 'you can do these things cause supernatural happenstance looked favourably on you' totally undermines that.

Then you don't mind when you are overshadowed by the supernatural abilities from the other classes. You can go from zero to hero while everyone else goes from hero to demigod. Then again, I guess someone has to be the Samwise in a party of Gandalfs and Aragorns...

 

[Micah Sweet]

No D&D character is a zero. Maybe in the OSR days when you randomly rolled them up to feed to woodchipper dungeons in hopes of getting one to 2nd level, but not for a couple editions now. There is a place for that kind of play (both in the explicitly nonmagical and/or 0 to hero) but I don't think D&D is that place anymore. I'd rather see the fighter and rogue keep up with the other overtly supernatural classes then wallow in mediocrity for the sake of nostalgia.

You get away with it as late as 3.5, and certainly before that. Even in 5e the narrative could work early on. Fighters and rogues who are explicitly supernatural from level 1 takes away a lot of fictional character narratives and references.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Doesn't make sense to me. Just that good doesn't do the job when you're fighting giant demons and ancient dragons. You need some kind of supernatural or technological edge.

it's lucky then that the game doesn't have to pass muster for what 'makes sense' to micah sweet