D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Remathilis]

I wish this thread was less shooting down potential Sorcerer rework ideas and more discussing various visions of the Sorcerer and what it might mechanically look like.

The issue comes that there isn't even a consensus that the sorcerer should even exist, let alone what form it should take.

 

[Shardstone]

Go ahead!

I have several times. Can't just be talking to myself the entire thread, now can I?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The issue comes that there isn't even a consensus that the sorcerer should even exist, let alone what form it should take.

True, but then again, 5.5 is already finalised, and if you don't like what that has to offer, there won't be a new chance anytime soon.
So in practical terms what are we doing here is just brainstorming houserules. So there doesn't need to be a consensus, just some ideas people who like them could use.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I wish this thread was less shooting down potential Sorcerer rework ideas and more discussing various visions of the Sorcerer and what it might mechanically look like.

Proposal: Restore and expand the playtest sorcerer.

Concepts:

• Do away with the separation between spell slots and sorcery points. Sorcerers get spell points, which they may use to cast whatever spells they know. This means Sorcerers may burn up all their points casting very high-level spells. Limits can be put in place if this is considered excessive, but I like the idea that the Sorcerer, who lives and breathes power, is the only one who can cast four 9th level spells per day or whatever.
• As the character spends SP, they begin to manifest the power within physically, their sorcerous soul literally taking over their body. They aren't actually at any risk of falling to that power (I mean, unless the player wants to, I guess?) Their exact abilities depend on subclass, similar to Monk.
• Metamagic is soft-reworked, adding bloodline-themed options. Reduce the total number of metamagics, and let every sorcerer have access to all of them from day 1 (except the bloodline-exclusive ones, of course.)
• Have bloodlines do useful and impactful things like adding proficiencies (especially armor/weapon profs) or giving natural weapons or the like.
• Add some new, Sorcerer-only spells, and make some existing spells Sorcerer-only (favor taking from the Wizard-only list, when possible.)
• Give each bloodline a choice of bonus spell lists. E.g. Draconic has element-themed spells, Shadow has one focused on illusions, one on enchantments/fear, and one on shadow conjurations, Celestial has a healing-focused list and a smiting-focused list; etc.

That seems like a pretty decent start.

 

[Minigiant]

The issue comes that there isn't even a consensus that the sorcerer should even exist, let alone what form it should take.

I think it's more people want to steal the mechanics off the sorcerer THEN shut down ideas for building up new ideas.

I've given at least 3 different ways to rebuild up the sorcerer but people are focused on "Give Wizards Metamagic" and "Give Wizard sparks" and "Turn everything into a pact"

 

[Minigiant]

I think there's design space to keep it within Warlock without needing to create a new class. The power-dynamic aspect of Warlock's source of power, when viewed through the right lens, can be seen as pure lore/fluff. The old Shaman 2e class is a really bad example of the concept. You could go the animism/College of Spirits Bard route, but I'd like to see abstracted further than straight-up animism, and without the jack-of-all-trades aspect that comes with a Bard.

I'm working on a Pact of the Host subclass, but holding off until we see how the Summoning spells turn out for 5.5, which may affect my design significantly.

There is the mistake.

A subclass should be a sub of the core idea. Not new interpretations of the core idea.

Changing or adding to the base idea is why this thread exists. The Warlock class is the Warlock getting power from the Patron via a specific Pactthat does that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No just the sorcerer.

Every other class needs compensation for boosting the wizard that much.

I disagree, but I didn't have an issue with wizards having metamagic in 3e (they still weren't more OP than clerics and druids IMO), and I'm looking at it from the perspective of classes already being better than they are in WotC 5e, like in Level Up.

You want to give all the WotC classes more cool stuff to do? I'm on board.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I have several times. Can't just be talking to myself the entire thread, now can I?

Me too. I can't help it if no one likes my ideas.

 

[Shardstone]

Proposal: Restore and expand the playtest sorcerer.

Concepts:

• Do away with the separation between spell slots and sorcery points. Sorcerers get spell points, which they may use to cast whatever spells they know. This means Sorcerers may burn up all their points casting very high-level spells. Limits can be put in place if this is considered excessive, but I like the idea that the Sorcerer, who lives and breathes power, is the only one who can cast four 9th level spells per day or whatever.
• As the character spends SP, they begin to manifest the power within physically, their sorcerous soul literally taking over their body. They aren't actually at any risk of falling to that power (I mean, unless the player wants to, I guess?) Their exact abilities depend on subclass, similar to Monk.
• Metamagic is soft-reworked, adding bloodline-themed options. Reduce the total number of metamagics, and let every sorcerer have access to all of them from day 1 (except the bloodline-exclusive ones, of course.)
• Have bloodlines do useful and impactful things like adding proficiencies (especially armor/weapon profs) or giving natural weapons or the like.
• Add some new, Sorcerer-only spells, and make some existing spells Sorcerer-only (favor taking from the Wizard-only list, when possible.)
• Give each bloodline a choice of bonus spell lists. E.g. Draconic has element-themed spells, Shadow has one focused on illusions, one on enchantments/fear, and one on shadow conjurations, Celestial has a healing-focused list and a smiting-focused list; etc.

That seems like a pretty decent start.

What subclasses would you do? How do you envision them transforming?

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree, but I didn't have an issue with wizards having metamagic in 3e (they still weren't more OP than clerics and druids IMO), and I'm looking at it from the perspective of classes already being better than they are in WotC 5e, like in Level Up.

You want to give all the WotC classes more cool stuff to do? I'm on board.

That is my point. If you raise the wizard to or past the LevelUp standard, you need to do the same to even other class.

CoDzilla OP and Batman Wizard OP were different types of OP BTW