Only the Lonely: Why We Demand Official Product

[Maxperson]

...but you didn't say I can't play a githzerai!

RULES LAWYERING FTW !!!!111!!!!!

You'll have to pry my player entitlement from my cold, dead, githzerai hands.

Lich! Githzerai Lich!

 

[Zardnaar]

Lich! Githzerai Lich!

Githzerai Gnome Paladin lich. With rapier.

 

[Azzy]

I would think of your typical humanocentric fantasy world this way:

You have a series of kingdoms and cultures. Most of these are human cultures and kingdoms. The Dwarves have one or two mountain cities somewhere but there in a great minority. Elves, live in forests somewhere, halfings presumably live somewhere but don't really have anywhere in particular. Gnomes? Who cares about gnomes?

Humans drive the world, and most of it's history.

Greyhawk by these lights is humanocentric.

And yet you have at least one country that is human dominant with a demihuman ruler (say, Sunndi, for example). Elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, hobgoblins, etc. are all over the place in GH.

 

[Azzy]

The addition of a new race, regardless of the method, is world/setting altering. The Dragonborn are a race that is both populous and capable of producing many level 20+ PC class PCs and NPCs or the equivalent power NPCs(depending on the method you use to make NPCs).

You're making assumptions about them being populous that are unnecessary. What PCs and special NPCs do is not necessarily indicative a a larger population.

If they had been running around loose in the world the entire time, they would have been known about and been present in Greyhawk and other cities/countries for entire 40 years it has been a published setting.

Not necessarily, there are a lot of things that exist in GH that are not going to be common knowledge. Also, despite not being in published work in products before they were invented isn't a compelling argument.

There are three choices I can see that result from Dragonborn entering the setting. 1) you retcon that they were around the entire time, but SOMEHOW no player or DM knew it while they were adventuring and creating adventures in Greyhawk. Not a good solution.

Why would players or DMs have to have prior knowledge about something for it to be added to a setting? That's just silly. Just because DMs never used, and players never encountered, something doesn't mean it never existed in the setting. By that logic, nothing that appeared in D&D after the publication of the GH Folio belongs in GH (including those pesky grugach elves that Gygax invented).

 

[Hussar]

Correct. Having ONE is in now way setting altering. Having an entire race IS setting altering.

Then that's your home brew. Just like I home brew Warforged in my game to be unique PCs and not a race. As the game introduces Dragonborn, though, they are a populous race.

Transportation magic and normal transportation is a thing for a race capable of generating level 20+ PCs and NPCs. It defies reason to think that none would have been seen for thousands of years and then suddenly they are all over the place.

Serious question @Maxperson - have you ever seen a live civet cat? Dodo birds existed in the world for hundreds of thousands of years before anyone knew about them. Scientists in the real world are discovering new species every day, with all the information that we have in the real world.

A pretty large enclave of Dragonborn could be hanging out in the Hellfurnaces, or The Amedio Jungle, or The Wild Coast or The Bright Desert or any of a hundred other places without any problem whatsoever. Have you actually played Greyhawk so much that you have run campaigns in every region? With the same players? Such that those players would be knowledgeable enough about every single location of Greyhawk that it would be impossible to slot in a new race?

That is bloody impressive if true.

OTOH, it's far more likely that your players, while they might have played a campaign or two in Greyhawk, have only a passing familiarity with the setting, maybe with some strong familiarity with this or that region, and no knowledge whatsoever of different areas. This is the nice thing about Greyhawk. Particularly if we're rolling things back to 1983 boxed set Greyhawk. Most of the Darlene map is undefined and undeveloped. What's in the Pomarj? No one knows. What's in the Bright Desert? No one knows. This isn't Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk is so undefined that I find it absolutely baffling that anyone could seriously argue that slotting in a new race is a major change to the setting.

 

[Zardnaar]

Serious question @Maxperson - have you ever seen a live civet cat? Dodo birds existed in the world for hundreds of thousands of years before anyone knew about them. Scientists in the real world are discovering new species every day, with all the information that we have in the real world.

A pretty large enclave of Dragonborn could be hanging out in the Hellfurnaces, or The Amedio Jungle, or The Wild Coast or The Bright Desert or any of a hundred other places without any problem whatsoever. Have you actually played Greyhawk so much that you have run campaigns in every region? With the same players? Such that those players would be knowledgeable enough about every single location of Greyhawk that it would be impossible to slot in a new race?

That is bloody impressive if true.

OTOH, it's far more likely that your players, while they might have played a campaign or two in Greyhawk, have only a passing familiarity with the setting, maybe with some strong familiarity with this or that region, and no knowledge whatsoever of different areas. This is the nice thing about Greyhawk. Particularly if we're rolling things back to 1983 boxed set Greyhawk. Most of the Darlene map is undefined and undeveloped. What's in the Pomarj? No one knows. What's in the Bright Desert? No one knows. This isn't Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk is so undefined that I find it absolutely baffling that anyone could seriously argue that slotting in a new race is a major change to the setting.

Agree. Doesn't mean I agree you get to okay as that new race though. I'm fine with ask the DM.

Even FR doesn't remove the PHB thing. Yes the other races exist RAW, DM doesn't have to let you play them.

 

[Hussar]

Agree. Doesn't mean I agree you get to okay as that new race though. I'm fine with ask the DM.

Even FR doesn't remove the PHB thing. Yes the other races exist RAW, DM doesn't have to let you play them.

Honestly, I largely agree with this. It's always an "ask your DM" thing.

What I don't agree with is this notion that it's somehow an difficult task to add a race to Greyhawk. There are just far, far too many blank spaces in Greyhawk for it to be an issue. And, frankly, if the only reason that the DM is saying no is that the DM happens to just not like that particular race, I don't have a lot of sympathy. It's not your character. I'd far, far rather have a player who was enthusiastic about playing a character than somehow browbeat the player into following my preferences.

 

[Zardnaar]

Honestly, I largely agree with this. It's always an "ask your DM" thing.

What I don't agree with is this notion that it's somehow an difficult task to add a race to Greyhawk. There are just far, far too many blank spaces in Greyhawk for it to be an issue. And, frankly, if the only reason that the DM is saying no is that the DM happens to just not like that particular race, I don't have a lot of sympathy. It's not your character. I'd far, far rather have a player who was enthusiastic about playing a character than somehow browbeat the player into following my preferences.

The context is adding races for players to play.

Although some settings should have certain races full stop (Orcs Krynn, Gnomes Darksun etc).

 

[Maxperson]

You're making assumptions about them being populous that are unnecessary. What PCs and special NPCs do is not necessarily indicative a a larger population.

Have you read Dragonborn in 5e? They are numerous enough to form the ranks of entire armies in great wars. That requires a large population.

 

[Maxperson]

Serious question @Maxperson - have you ever seen a live civet cat? Dodo birds existed in the world for hundreds of thousands of years before anyone knew about them. Scientists in the real world are discovering new species every day, with all the information that we have in the real world.

Holy False Equivalence Batman! When Dodos and other animals achieve intelligence and the ability to use magic, including the ability to teleport and shift planes, get back to me on how they are the same as Dragonborn.