D&D 5E Only three pillars?

[Lanefan]

Again, I don't think downtime is a separate pillar. Looking at Xanathar's list of downtime we have.

1. Buy Magic Items(exploration/social)
2. Carousing(social/combat/exploration)
3. Crafting an Item(exploration/social)
4. Crime(exploration/combat/social)

The depth of the downtime activities is not going to be as great as non-downtime, but the activities, rolls and results fall into the big three pillars.

Mileage varies greatly on this. Never mind that rather incomplete list is missing:

5. Stronghold/temple/lab/base design and construction*
5a. Ongoing management and financing of same
6. Research and invention
7. Training* and levelling up
8. Treasury division and allocation
9. Non-adventuring travel to known places e.g. to visit family

* - 5e doesn't have these in RAW but some other editions do, and even though 5e codified the pillars this is an edition-agnostic topic.

 

[Aldarc]

D&D only has three pillars because the British Museum stole the other pillars and refuses to give them back.

 

[Lanefan]

It assumes a different mechanical system because that’s how I’m defining modes of play. If you handle downtime using the same mechanics that you use to handle exploration, then I would not consider downtime its own mode of play in your game.

I don't tie either modes of play or pillars to the mechanics they use, as each mode or pillar might involve various different mechanics (or no mechanics at all) at different times and-or to do different things.

Treasury division, for example, doesn't use any mechanics whatsoever.

 

[Lanefan]

"Downtime" is part of the social pillar, and one my players show no interest in engaging in, and therefore not a required part of the game.

Just because your table eschews downtime doesn't mean the game as a whole has to leave it out.

There's tables who don't use feats in 5e (they're optional) - does that mean feats shouldn't be in the PH?

Same with kingdom management stuff. These things are just optional extras for those who want them.

And should be in the game for those who want them.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't tie either modes of play or pillars to the mechanics they use, as each mode or pillar might involve various different mechanics (or no mechanics at all) at different times and-or to do different things.

Then you’re using the term “modes of play” differently than I am.

Treasury division, for example, doesn't use any mechanics whatsoever.

And it’s not specifically tied to any particular mode of play. I’d argue it’s not even really gameplay at all, it’s bookkeeping. Players might choose to speak in character while dividing treasure, perhaps acting out the interactions they imagine their characters having about how to divide said treasure, and that’s fine, but it’s not really gameplay. It’s just, like, an improv scene.

 

[Lanefan]

Then you’re using the term “modes of play” differently than I am.

Quite possibly, as I'm just using it as a more useful term to replace "pillars".

The model you first presented made a lot of sense other than the to-me-inexplicable tie-in to mechanical systems.

And it’s not specifically tied to any particular mode of play. I’d argue it’s not even really play at all, it’s bookkeeping. Players might choose to speak in character while dividing treasure, perhaps acting out the interactions they imagine their characters having about how to divide said treasure, and that’s fine, but it’s not really gameplay. It’s just, like, an improv scene.

And as such would fall under both downtime (the bookkeeping bit) and social (the in-character interactions bit).

Levelling up is completely downtime.

 

[Charlaquin]

Quite possibly, as I'm just using it as a more useful term to replace "pillars".

The model you first presented made a lot of sense other than the to-me-inexplicable tie-in to mechanical systems.

Mechanical systems are inextricable from gameplay. Can’t have a game without mechanics. You can have unstructured play, but that’s not the same thing as a game.

And as such would fall under both downtime (the bookkeeping bit) and social (the in-character interactions bit).

Bookkeeping and acting are not gameplay though, so it doesn’t make sense to call them “pillars of the game,” much less “modes of play.” They might be enjoyable activities, but that doesn’t make them gameplay.

Levelling up is completely downtime.

Yeah, leveling up is also not gameplay.

 

[Lanefan]

Mechanical systems are inextricable from gameplay. Can’t have a game without mechanics. You can have unstructured play, but that’s not the same thing as a game.

Bookkeeping and acting are not gameplay though, so it doesn’t make sense to call them “pillars of the game,” much less “modes of play.” They might be enjoyable activities, but that doesn’t make them gameplay.

Yes it does, unless you are also tying your definition of gameplay to use of mechanics.

Hell, in-character freeform roleplay is the very essence of playing D&D and doesn't need any mechanics at all.

Yeah, leveling up is also not gameplay.

If levelling up isn't gameplay then what is it? I ask because it sure seems like an essential aspect of playing the game to me (more so in the WotC editions than earlier) and the game can't happen* without it.

* - unless you're running a homebrew setup where the characters always stay at the level they started at.

 

[Lanefan]

It occurs to me that there's two other things I should note about Downtime as a pillar/mode:

1. Character generation falls under downtime.
2. The downtime pillar/mode includes game-related things done during player downtime (e.g. char-gen, level-up, bookkeeping) as well as in-fiction things done during character downtime.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Just because your table eschews downtime doesn't mean the game as a whole has to leave it out.

There's tables who don't use feats in 5e (they're optional) - does that mean feats shouldn't be in the PH?

And should be in the game for those who want them.

Sure. The "three pillars" refers to the stuff that is pretty much always part of the game. Metaphorically, pillars are something that are essential to hold up the edifice. Optional extras are great, but they aint pillars.