OOC - [Epic] Scions of the Endless Falls - Full

[Wrahn]

Um, Kelleris...

Perform: Oratory is for telling stories. If we were to follow the proper NPC reaction, you would be rewarded with 3d6 gold. Perhaps followed by weaping and applauds for a truly epic story. People would tell their children about having seen Arion perform the epic of Solun.

The skill you need to roll is Diplomacy, if you wanted to include a story into your Diplomacy check, I am sure that Isida could be presuaded to give you a bonus but telling us stories alone is not going to change our opinions one iota.

As far as detailing your points bullet style, I think you should make your point in character and then roll. While obviously you can't mimic your character "awesomeness" at social interaction, you can give us some idea of how you are presenting it. [condesending jerk]Remember this is Role-playing, not Roll-playing[/condesending jerk]

Thanks for the answers to my previous questions btw.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Well, we don't have any epic spellcasting, and I highly doubt wish and its kindred will do anything, since practically all of us can manage that effect.

We don't really have a lot to go on, actually. I would suggest that we find a deity who participated in the destruction - a weaker one, that we could wield some influence over if s/he gets difficult - and get the inside story. If practically all the gods were involved, with all those different ideologies and alignments, that strikes me as an alliance waiting to be pried open.

Granted, we'd probably have to deal with an evil god of some sort, but an ambitious demigod or lesser deity could hardly turn down the proffered services of a half-dozen 30th-level characters, no matter what the risks are. S/he will be planning a double-cross later, but I'm sure that's something we can prepare for.

Generally, You are right and wrong in the same moment.

A Deity who would need services of band of mortals ... Is really weak one, like Iuz from Oerth, at least for the task that is standing before the Scions.

And I will fiercely disagree that Wish wouldn't help. Small steps ... One Wish probably wouldn't do much. But hundred ? Or thousand ? Hire a wizard ... And I could borrow my favourite one as a NPC for Isida. He is currently on the quest of collecting Wish scrolls. His name is Azebol, Rikandur Azebol. CE, Half-fiend, 18 lvl VILE wizard.

And yes, one of his wet dreams is Wish-machine. Poor thing didn't know that it requies Epic skills to make ... DM is prematurely cackling.

And one more question ... How will You find Your way out of Endless Falls remmants ? You are not a wizard, nor planewalker.

Sorry for nagging. Couldn't stop myslef.

 

[Kangaxx]

I'm going to 2nd Wrahn's request for an actual speech instead of a bullet point summary. We understand that what you type won't be as eloquent as what Arion says, but it's hard to have an intelligent discussion when you say Arion says this is the way things are, perform +126 to make it sound good. While it'd be amusing for me to say Pilmer responds with bald-faced lies, bluff +52 to make you believe him, I think the game is degenerating at that point. If you're having trouble composing the speech, perhaps you could post the bullets in the OOC thread and see if Isida is willing to help you fill in a few blanks. In summary: IC thread for IC stuff.

Btw, the sense motive check was directed entirely at Solarion. I know that's not even supposed to work, but I thought it was the best way to represent Pilmer attempting to read the thoughts behind the words. I think OneAboveAll missed that Pilmer's last post was telepathic, and was indeed responding to it. So once again I decided to just roll with it rather than trying to edit posts.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Well, we don't have any epic spellcasting, and I highly doubt wish and its kindred will do anything, since practically all of us can manage that effect.

We don't really have a lot to go on, actually. I would suggest that we find a deity who participated in the destruction - a weaker one, that we could wield some influence over if s/he gets difficult - and get the inside story. If practically all the gods were involved, with all those different ideologies and alignments, that strikes me as an alliance waiting to be pried open.

Granted, we'd probably have to deal with an evil god of some sort, but an ambitious demigod or lesser deity could hardly turn down the proffered services of a half-dozen 30th-level characters, no matter what the risks are. S/he will be planning a double-cross later, but I'm sure that's something we can prepare for.

Generally, You are right and wrong in the same moment.

A Deity who would need services of band of mortals ... Is really weak one, like Iuz from Oerth, at least for the task that is standing before the Scions.

And I will fiercely disagree that Wish wouldn't help. Small steps ... One Wish probably wouldn't do much. But hundred ? Or thousand ? Hire a wizard ... And I could borrow my favourite one as a NPC for Isida. He is currently on the quest of collecting Wish scrolls. His name is Azebol, Rikandur Azebol. CE, Half-fiend, 18 lvl VILE wizard.

And yes, one of his wet dreams is Wish-machine. Poor thing didn't know that it requies Epic skills to make ... DM is prematurely cackling.

And one more question ... How will You find Your way out of Endless Falls remmants ? You are not a wizard, nor planewalker.

Sorry for nagging. Couldn't stop myslef.

 

[Kelleris]

Uhm, not so much. Storytelling is one part of Perform (oratory). Another part is persuasive speech-making, a la Cicero or Martin Luther King, Jr. That's what I'm doing. Diplomacy is haggling out a solution, this is me telling you what the best idea is. I will likely lose ground when we start to debate it, but I will start from a very persuasuve case.

Rules-wise, you'll note that Perform is functionally identical to Diplomacy as far as influencing others is concerned. If I was wrangling out a compromise of some sort, I'd have to roll Diplomacy. I'm not. I'm making the strongest possible case in one presentation.

As far as the way I put it, I did tell you what I was saying and how I was saying it. However, I have to assume that a large portion of the skill of speaking ex tempore is the actual words you use. Arion's actual words are a whole heck of a lot more interesting, persuasive, carefully worded, and so forth than anything I could come up with. Using my personal skill at persuading people is OOC; I can't fake Arion's skill IC by a long shot, so I made my case in a short, short version and left the embellishments and specific examples to the master. In fact, even if I were inclined to do otherwise, I don't have the information I would need to do so, and Isida would have to write up several pages of theological and cosmological exposition for me to have that information.

It simply isn't feasible for me to do anything different than I did, any more than it would be feasible for me to attempt to write out the notes of a DC 126 piece for the violin. I can specify what the music is like, why I'm doing it, and even what effect I'm going for, but the rest is to be passed over in silence.

EDIT: Rikandur Azebol - Well, I meant our personal wishy resources. I'm sure thousands of wishes could make at least some headway.

As for leaving the plane, I'm not sure where that came from, but I suppose I would shadow walk if it were just me. I assume that Pilmer or one of the clerical spellcasters can manage gate or plane shift, though.

 

[Wrahn]

DIPLOMACY (CHA)
Check: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs.

PERFORM (CHA)
Each of the nine categories of the Perform skill includes a variety of methods, instruments, or techniques, a small list of which is provided for each category below.

-Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)

Check: You can impress audiences with your talent and skill.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but all those examples of what you think are oratory, are actually Diplomacy in D&D. If you want to try and change people’s attitudes, you have to roll diplomacy. Likewise if you want people to believe a lie, you have to roll Bluff not Perform: Acting.

The only thing Perform is good for (under the basic rules) is making money and bard music.

Think about it, Clerics who want to persuade people to join their church, follow their god, get diplomacy not perform.

You want to weave a strong message in your music to influence a crowd? That is Diplomacy with a bonus from your Perform skill. Want to illustrate a point in a persuasive speech? Diplomacy with a bonus from perform.

Mechanically speaking, Perform allows you to get money. That is all. According to the SRD anyway, where are you getting your information?

 

[Ferrix]

Yeehaw! Look what happens when you go to class for three hours... heheh.

Ummm... don't really want to feel like I'm butting heads with Kelleris again, or anyone for that matter, but I guess I'll poke in a bit of topic.

I don't wholly mind the way Kelleris broke it up in the way he did... but I think it would have been better to read without just being OOC text.

Something like...

Beginning his narrative Arion goes on for a good while, touching on how gods don't have free will, etc. etc. finally ending with whatever.

The performance check at the end in brackets will give us an idea of how well it went off, but it probably won't change a characters mind if they disagree on fundamental differences. Things like that I encounter all the time in debates within my major at university (philosophy), if you don't agree on all the premises, you aren't going to get anywhere with a person usually, you just end up reaffirming your own ideas.

The rules he's looking at Wrahn are in the Epic Level Handbook in the Skills section under Perform, which basically make it like diplomacy. Although with a check of 126, he'd only go to helpful from unfriendly (which I don't imagine we're all even indifferent to each other, we've got our agendas and issues with each other obviously).

Although I really think we should go with atleast as guidelines, although the social skills even with these guidelines really break down at epic levels... where are they... the diplomacy rules found here that make them dependant upon the level/hd of the folks you are trying to influence.

Enough blabbing...

 

[Kelleris]

Yeah, the Giant in the Playground rules are pretty good.

Anyway, I'm using Perform (oratory) to make an oration. I'm not even explicitly trying to convince anyone, I'm just making the case as persuasively as I can. Although, Ferrix, the DC for unfriendly to fanatic is 120 in the SRD I was looking at.

But that's neither here nor there. I do think you should at least seriously consider what Arion's offering. It's not like nobody ever changes their minds on these matters anyway, and I imagine anyone who gets through an event like this without at least slightly re-evaluating their beliefs about the gods is a fool or extremely biased. I wouldn't expect to change Pilmer's mind, since that's his life's work, but he should at least feel the need to say something about it; for anyone undecided, I should have made at least a respectable alternative.

...if you don't agree on all the premises, you aren't going to get anywhere with a person usually, you just end up reaffirming your own ideas...

I don't really agree with this. Some common ground is necessary, of course, but you hardly have to agree on all premises to begin with. To argue that would mean that nobody ever changes their mind except based on purely logical deduction from available (and completely shared) premises. That's obviously not the case; changes of opinion are much more complex than that, in all fields of discussion. In fact, I would say that hardly anyone is ever convinced in that way.

 

[Kangaxx]

Nevermind. Not worth further discussion.

 

[Ferrix]

I don't really agree with this. Some common ground is necessary, of course, but you hardly have to agree on all premises to begin with. To argue that would mean that nobody ever changes their mind except based on purely logical deduction from available (and completely shared) premises. That's obviously not the case; changes of opinion are much more complex than that, in all fields of discussion. In fact, I would say that hardly anyone is ever convinced in that way.

I'm not saying that there must be shared premises, thats barely a logical possibility no less a realistic one, I was just making a more sociological observation of how people often test their ideas by bringing up only cases which support them. My first formulation of it in words didn't precisely come out as I had wanted it, but this above is more of what I meant.