Opinion: PoL and high tiers do not fit in the long run

[xechnao]

xechnao: In your campaigns... do characters actually cleanse every last mote of evil from the world?

Every possible source of future evil?

Because I've never even heard of anyone doing that, EVER.

Even real world religions only ever lock evil away.

There always is some kind of threat that people will have the power to adjust to so to face it without risking their existance. But PCs do not have to be the true messiah's of the world for the players to have some fun. The question is to be creative enough for a lasting impression and for this you do not have to be the only and true saviour of the world every time. Alas, if we establish a trope like this for d&d, IMO it will become boring to play it much faster. I think Eberron and FR was ok for having all the fun you wanted.

 

[Incenjucar]

PoL doesn't assume you solve every problem, just that you survive enough of them to grow in power.

Where are you getting this messiah assumption?

 

[xechnao]

PoL doesn't assume you solve every problem, just that you survive enough of them to grow in power.

Where are you getting this messiah assumption?

What is the meaning of rising in power? to be able to change or manipulate things, right? If you rised in power in a PoL setting wouldn't you change it for the better? Carrying on like this and light expands till say the era of illumination.

Besides, no need to project the meaning of PoL myself. Hasn't WotC stated that PCs now will be the real heroes, the ones that will do matter in the world?

 

[Cmarco]

What setting? Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Birthright, DarkSun, Greyhawk ?? These are neither PoL nor PCs are the only protagonists.

Actually, I disagree. Most of these settings are PoL, at least when the settings started they were.

DarkSun- Evil is everywhere. Outside of town, you're pretty much on your own. Lots of stuff can kill you out there, and people aren't very well traveled. Adventurers are exceptional.

Birthright- The Awnshegh are very powerful monsters, often with armies of monsters and evil people running around doing their bidding, and countries are almost all locked in combat or at least very uneasy alliances with one another. This sounds fairly PoL to me.

Greyhawk- Monsters still roam all over the place, and the arms of the law don't reach very far (The Moathouse near Hommlet and Temple of Elemental Evil come to mind). Thousands of adventures have marched off to their deaths in all manner of horrible and strange dungeons, inhabited by eldritch horrors of bygone empires and evil gods and demons plan the destruction of all the remaining goodly nations of the world.

Planescape- could be as PoL as your DM wants it to be. Sigil is a dangerous city, the planes are rife with horrors and villains working on hatching evil schemes. It's very PoL to me. In fact, Planescape often runs you through other planes which could be considered Points-of-Light settings.

Forgotten Realms- While there are bastions of civilization, not many of these are what could be considered "safe havens" or "good" places. There are still plenty of monsters roaming around to be killed, and plenty of unexplored dungeons to loot. Evil organizations thrive everywhere, and between dragons going rogue and rampaging across Faerun and the massive martial aggression of the orc armies in the Spine of the World, it's been quite PoL lately. Also, when the 4e Realms hit, you can guarantee that those "safe havens" have gotten a lot less common.

 

[Incenjucar]

What is the meaning of rising in power? to be able to change or manipulate things, right? If you rised in power in a PoL setting wouldn't you change it for the better? Carrying on like this and light expands till say the era of illumination.

Besides, no need to project the meaning of PoL myself. Hasn't WotC stated that PCs now will be the real heroes, the ones that will do matter in the world?

If entire pantheons of deities, flights of dragons, cities of illithids and drow and etc etc etc can't do it...

The PCs are the ones who matter in their story.

It doesn't mean theirs is the only story, it just means that Drizzt and Elminster won't be babysitting them.

And, again, eventually most PCs die.

Others become deities, but deities can die too.

 

[xechnao]

Cmarco: if by PoL you mean interesting sites for adventuring I agree.

But if by PoL you mean the cosmic idea of the world, I do not. We had aligments and pantheons built onto the alignment trope.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of it. But at least it provided an explanation of why there were monsters and humans still fighting each other. Problem is that PoL does not have such a foundation yet.

 

[Incenjucar]

Why do you keep mentioning alignment?

Alignment has absolutely zippo to do with PoL.

 

[Hussar]

What is the meaning of rising in power? to be able to change or manipulate things, right? If you rised in power in a PoL setting wouldn't you change it for the better? Carrying on like this and light expands till say the era of illumination.

Besides, no need to project the meaning of PoL myself. Hasn't WotC stated that PCs now will be the real heroes, the ones that will do matter in the world?

Why? What reason is there for the PC's to have this level of power? So much power that they can single handedly bring civilization to an entire world? When has D&D EVER given you that much power?

Look at it like this:

Campaign 1 - PC's rise up and establish a large, strong, stable nation by 30th level.

Campaign 2 PC's start out in that new stable nation and begin extending its borders. By 30th level, they've doubled the size of that nation.

Campaign 3 - TPK - The nation, bereft of its heroes, shrinks in size due to the barbarians at the gate.

Campaign 4 - PC's regain the losses from the last campaign, and begin to push further outward. However, a larger mass of darkness sweeps in from an unexpected direction. Campaign ends in stalemate.

Campaign 5 - on and on and on

Hell, there's 5 campaigns, which for me would be about 8 years of gaming, just based on the orginal PoL setting. What more do you want? A setting that lasted me for 10 years would be fuggin' fantastic.

Heck, take the Scarred Lands (a perfect PoL setting).

Campaign 1 - PC's start in Mithril and manage to clean up the surrounding area, creating a strong nation in the north east of the continent.

Campaign 2 - Calastia finally breaks out of its siege of the dwarves and sweeps up from the north. The campaign is designed to foil this invasion from the south.

Campaign 3 - Depending on how Camp 2 went, it could take a couple of directions, but, we'll assume the PC's were successful in Camp 2. The PC's begin extended the influence of Mithril in to the heartland of Ghelspad, taming the destruction wrought by the Titanswar.

There you go, three solid campaigns from an old setting. Would work perfectly from 1st to 30th level. Six years of gaming. Go forth and play.

 

[xechnao]

If entire pantheons of deities, flights of dragons, cities of illithids and drow and etc etc etc can't do it...

The PCs are the ones who matter in their story.

It doesn't mean theirs is the only story, it just means that Drizzt and Elminster won't be babysitting them.

But the other powers will have to bring in some kind of a factor that the PCs will have to respect or at least benefit from. If they do not and PCs can challenge them I do not see why they (the PCs that is) would not wipe them out. WotC said that high level PCs can even challenge the gods. That is the problem IMO.

 

[Incenjucar]

But the other powers will have to bring in some kind of a factor that the PCs will have to respect or at least benefit from. If they do not and PCs can challenge them I do not see why they (the PCs that is) would not wipe them out. WotC said that high level PCs can even challenge the gods. That is the problem IMO.

There are also dragons, and yet people still manage to live and die without a dragon getting in on it.