D&D 5E (2024) Opinions on the Topaz Dragon Reverse Wings?

[dave2008]

Disagree. Bat or bird-style wings would absolutely function at that scale, they're just not that different to aeroplane wings. The issue is more to do with the claimed weights of D&D dragons, and how the game claims they fly.

Two issues: wing size and strength of materials. Dragon wings would have to be much larger to produce the required lift and the bones and particularly the muscles would have to me much stronger than currently known. This related to weight of course too. We can handwave these because of magic, but there no way for a creature of the size and power of a T-Rex to naturally fly like we want our dragons to fly and battle like we want our dragons to fight. We cover this by making it look "plausible" and then magic!

What do you mean by reverse? Because you seem to be using a lot of words in ways other people do not understand them (tweak particularly lol, I would have said "change completely" where you said "tweak"), especially people who have a lot more knowledge than you about physics and flight (no insult but...).

The problem here is I am thinking mostly about the concept and less about the actual mechanics. In D&D, as noted above, the actual limitations of mechanics and physics are less important. You need to make it look good enough and the explanation good enough. That being said I don't think anyone here is versed enough in the physics of flight to really discuss what I am talking about.

I am also more interested in the why. Why would the dragon be designed this way. That is really the more interesting question to me and the one I am more hung up on at the moment.

Could you perhaps draw a sketch of what you mean in MS Paint or something?

My tablet is not set up yet but I can sketch something and scan or take a picture of it. However, I said this would be my retirement project - that is still 10-15 years away. I don't have the time give this a proper go yet.

Not quite - this was explained upthread.

Hummingbird wings are aerodynamic in both directions, they're just MORE aerodynamic in the forward direction, and they operate a lot more like rigid insect wing than a conventional bird or bat or dragon wing (but are their own thing).

Yes this dragon would need unique wings, we agree on that.

I think we understand re: magic - the magic is to be focused on allowing a wing that large to slam up and down fast enough to keep 80,000lbs airborne. It's going to be real noisy!

Well it is likely this dragon would weigh much less than 80,000 lbs. The same with normal dragons, they are either magically lighter or stronger than "normal" materials or a combination of both because magic. This is no different than any other dragon, just applied differently.

 

[Laurefindel]

The analogy with the X-29 is that he plane cannot fly without its computer making constant adjustments. It is a design that can't fly that we make fly through technology. The analogy is we replace technology with magic.

Yes, the whole point is to make some changes to the design to make it work

I was about to say that most modern fighter planes with more conventional wing designs like the F-35 cannot fly without heavy computer assistance either, but that’s besides the point now I think.

I can imagine ways for the dragon to fly with reverse wings, as I wrote in the rest of my last post. I can also imagine what type of transformation the wing would need to become helpful in flight assuming a « backward » ossature, but the latter is hard to reconcile with the image of the Topaz Dragon. Basically, the wing would need to become aerodynamic, and the musculature would need to allow powerful and sustained forward motions, so ultimately they wouldn’t look like that. I guess that magic can provide all this instead, but then that’s not an evolutionary advantage, it’s just catching up to a handicap, which in turns raises two questions.

1) Why do they have backward wings in the first place? Was it a cruel gods idea of a joke, a righteous god’s curse on a whole species, or a jealous god’s revenge on another god’s creation? Did some uber wizard lost a bet, or is this the result of a drunken wizards’ dare game? The backwards wings probably didn’t happen naturally, for what natural evolution is worth in D&D.

2) what kind of environment allowed such a dragon to survive and thrive despite its handicap? Perhaps they didn’t need to fly much and thus wasn’t that much of a disadvantage, but then why haven’t the wings atrophied? Did they need their wings for other things then? Sunbathing? Absorbing some kind of energy or magical radiation? If that’s the case, why to they use their wings at all when flying? Wouldn’t it be simpler to use magic to fly and tuck those aweful airbrakes tight against your back instead? Obviously not because that’s what they would do otherwise and the illustration shows them flying with wings spread.

(An an aside, I just realized that all this time, I’ve been assuming that the image showed the dragon flying but perhaps it isn’t. Perhaps the dragon isn’t intended to be capable of flight but the silhouette is simply showing it all stretched up for proportion and comparisons, like pinned butterflies and insects)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Two issues: wing size and strength of materials. Dragon wings would have to be much larger to produce the required lift and the bones and particularly the muscles would have to me much stronger than currently known.

Meh.

In nature that's always a case of "it wasn't true until it was". And "much larger" is very variable based on the exact dragon art/description. The muscles would have to be, sure, but like, if you were in the Triassic, looking at animals then you'd have poo-poo'd the idea of Brachiosaurs or Blue Whales because nothing remotely that large or strong existed.

Well it is likely this dragon would weigh much less than 80,000 lbs. The same with normal dragons, they are either magically lighter or stronger than "normal" materials or a combination of both because magic. This is no different than any other dragon, just applied differently.

Uhhhhh according to the Draconomicon even a Huge dragon weighs 20,000lbs and Ancient Wyrm can push 1m lbs. So where are you getting "dragons weigh a lot less than that!" from? The water in the dragonflesh alone given the volume of a dragon (we can approximate them as a cylinder) seems like it would weigh tens of thousands of pounds.

 

[dave2008]

Disagree. Bat or bird-style wings would absolutely function at that scale, they're just not that different to aeroplane wings. The issue is more to do with the claimed weights of D&D dragons, and how the game claims they fly.

Bat wings are quite bit more flexible than bird or airplane wings. I only remember reading one paper on it a while ago so my memory is faulty and likely outdated, but they achieve similar function with quite different mechanics. Thy were surprised how much so after really studying it with high-speed cameras IIRC.

 

[Clint_L]

Well, some folks are quite into it, so I’m glad that there’s a dragon for them, even if it’s really not for me.

 

[dave2008]

I was about to say that most modern fighter planes with more conventional wing designs like the F-35 cannot fly without heavy computer assistance either, but that’s besides the point now I think.

I can imagine ways for the dragon to fly with reverse wings, as I wrote in the rest of my last post. I can also imagine what type of transformation the wing would need to become helpful in flight assuming a « backward » ossature, but the latter is hard to reconcile with the image of the Topaz Dragon. Basically, the wing would need to become aerodynamic, and the musculature would need to allow powerful and sustained forward motions, so ultimately they wouldn’t look like that. I guess that magic can provide all this instead, but then that’s not an evolutionary advantage, it’s just catching up to a handicap, which in turns raises two questions.

I wasn't thinking of keeping the design the same, just the concept. I think a series of redesigns will be needed.

 

[dave2008]

I was about to say that most modern fighter planes with more conventional wing designs like the F-35 cannot fly without heavy computer assistance either, but that’s besides the point now I think.

I can imagine ways for the dragon to fly with reverse wings, as I wrote in the rest of my last post. I can also imagine what type of transformation the wing would need to become helpful in flight assuming a « backward » ossature, but the latter is hard to reconcile with the image of the Topaz Dragon. Basically, the wing would need to become aerodynamic, and the musculature would need to allow powerful and sustained forward motions, so ultimately they wouldn’t look like that. I guess that magic can provide all this instead, but then that’s not an evolutionary advantage, it’s just catching up to a handicap, which in turns raises two questions.

1) Why do they have backward wings in the first place? Was it a cruel gods idea of a joke, a righteous god’s curse on a whole species, or a jealous god’s revenge on another god’s creation? Did some uber wizard lost a bet, or is this the result of a drunken wizards’ dare game? The backwards wings probably didn’t happen naturally, for what natural evolution is worth in D&D.

2) what kind of environment allowed such a dragon to survive and thrive despite its handicap? Perhaps they didn’t need to fly much and thus wasn’t that much of a disadvantage, but then why haven’t the wings atrophied? Did they need their wings for other things then? Sunbathing? Absorbing some kind of energy or magical radiation? If that’s the case, why to they use their wings at all when flying? Wouldn’t it be simpler to use magic to fly and tuck those aweful airbrakes tight against your back instead? Obviously not because that’s what they would do otherwise and the illustration shows them flying with wings spread.

(An an aside, I just realized that all this time, I’ve been assuming that the image showed the dragon flying but perhaps it isn’t. Perhaps the dragon isn’t intended to be capable of flight but the silhouette is simply showing it all stretched up for proportion and comparisons, like pinned butterflies and insects)

Yep those (1 & 2) are both what are more interesting, and difficult, IMO.

 

[dave2008]

In nature that's always a case of "it wasn't true until it was". And "much larger" is very variable based on the exact dragon art/description. The muscles would have to be, sure, but like, if you were in the Triassic, looking at animals then you'd have poo-poo'd the idea of Brachiosaurs or Blue Whales because nothing remotely that large or strong existed.

We have come a long way since then. These questions have been addressed by others far more qualified than me and they agree with me on this!

Though I did always appreciate the hot-air ballon approach!

Uhhhhh according to the Draconomicon even a Huge dragon weighs 20,000lbs and Ancient Wyrm can push 1m lbs. So where are you getting "dragons weigh a lot less than that!" from? The water in the dragonflesh alone given the volume of a dragon (we can approximate them as a cylinder) seems like it would weigh tens of thousands of pounds.

First, I said this dragon, not all dragons. Also, my point was that greater weight only increases the reliance on magic. There is some combination of weight, wing design, and strength that works. To make it work as drawn (for any dragon) magic needs to be applied to one or more of those areas. So magic can make the dragon lighter or magic can make the muscles and bones stronger or magic can make the wings more or less rigid or a combination of all of these (and possibly others too).

 

[Charlaquin]

That is fine, personally I don't have gem dragons in my world - solves the issue rather easily.

However, this whole discussion has not made me interested in making a crazy topaz dragon design with backward wings that make some sense for some bizarre reason. Saying the simply dislocate and reverse only when they land is not nearly deep enough for what I am looking for. I want some strange method of flight with some other adaptations. My current angle is that it is an adaptation to make it a crazily agile flyer (like the humming bird and X-29). What else needs to change about the design to push that concept? What else is sacrificed to make it insanely agile (probably can't fly as fast for example). I want to take the backward wings and figure out what could work!

Alright, here’s my pitch. Despite looking like bat wings, the Topaz dragon’s wings work like the wings of a bumblebee or a hummingbird. Rather than flapping up and down, they flap forwards and backwards, pivoting at the far forward and backward positions, in a “knife spreading butter on toast” kind of motion. This action creates vortices of air rather than simply pushing the air down and back, allowing these types of fliers to hover, and to fly omni-directionally, including upside-down.

If using this explanation, you should of course give Topaz dragons the “(hover)” tag on their fly speed.

 

[dave2008]

Alright, here’s my pitch. Despite looking like bat wings, the Topaz dragon’s wings work like the wings of a bumblebee or a hummingbird. Rather than flapping up and down, they flap forwards and backwards, pivoting at the far forward and backward positions, in a “knife spreading butter on toast” kind of motion. This action creates vortices of air rather than simply pushing the air down and back, allowing these types of fliers to hover, and to fly omni-directionally, including upside-down.

If using this explanation, you should of course give Topaz dragons the “(hover)” tag on their fly speed.

Yep, if you read through a few more posts you will see that is exactly where I am going. Still not enough of concept for some though! I am trying to come up with a reason for why they are like this though. The FR wiki gave me some ideas, I need to look at FToG and see if I can get a few more.