Opinions on updated PDF/Print layout, thanks...

[mroberon1972]

Single-space: Back in the typewriter days it was standard practice to put double spaces between sentences. It's the way my old typing teacher taught me in high school, too. But with modern desktop publishing two spaces are not only unnecessary but overkill. Double spaces between sentences are visual speedbumps--like the ones bracketing this sentence. Like I said--not a big deal but it does help visually clean up the layout. You can easily clean up the whole document with a simple search and replace.

Paragraph indents: Typically the first paragraph in a section is not indented. It's just a small visual clue that helps readers identify a new section. Of course, the header/subhead does that as well, but I guess it just reinforces it.

Thanks for the input, I really do appreciate it.

About both of these items: Seems they are up to personal taste as to who belives what. Since they really do not detract or add to the quality (as far as I can tell), I will probably leave them this way since that is what I'm most comforable with.

Mind you, If dozens of people complain on these issues, I will revise my thinking quickly on the matter.

What about these items:

1. Anyone else think the border should be greyed out more?

2. Was the format for the monster easy to read? Did the art layout style cause any problems?

Thanks again.

 

[Cergorach]

The point Prest0 pointed out are biggies, if you want to look professional, change it.

 

[Jon Potter]

I too agree with Prest0. I'm not a publisher, but I am a graphic designer and the saying I always used to hear about the 'double-space-after-a-period' thing is, "If you're old enough to remember having to do it on a typewriter, you're old enough to know better than to still do it."

I would add - from a strict design sense - the following:

1. The inclusion of multiple art pieces on the front page is somewhat problematic since they are in different styles. The two line-art pieces on the right appear to be by the same artist and are done in the same style - therefore they complement each other and give your product a unifying 'identity'. The other two pieces - while they are fine pieces of art - are done in different styles. This is particularly true of the grayscale image on the upper left. It immediately jumped out at me when I looked at the front page.
   
2. The first paragraph on page 2, which is written as a letter/journal exerpt would benefit from either a different typeface or point size to separate it from the standard body copy used in the rest of the document. Perhaps setting these 'flavor text' bits off from the rest of the document with shaded boxes would help to clearly delineate them.
   
3. The section headers (ie., "Overview of the Valley, by Rudy VanRoland") should probably be centered rather left justified. The same applies to the quotation information for the flavor text (ie., "Rudy VanRoland, Exiled Doctor of the...").
   
4. It's good typesetting to keep your paragraphs together as much as possible. If the paragraphs must jump columns, it's a good idea to keep a minimum of two lines in each column. At the bottom of page 2, the first column ends with a single line from the next paragraph. That's another thing that jumped out at me.

As far as the border and the monster formatting goes, I had no problem with either. There is enough visual space between the border and the body copy that I don't think the border interferes with readability. And I actually like the artwork breaking up the columns of text as it does - particularly the borderless image at the bottom of page 4. It's a very appealing layout.

Hope this is more helpful than it is insulting.

 

[mroberon1972]

I too agree with Prest0. I'm not a publisher, but I am a graphic designer and the saying I always used to hear about the 'double-space-after-a-period' thing is, "If you're old enough to remember having to do it on a typewriter, you're old enough to know better than to still do it."

I would add - from a strict design sense - the following:

1. The inclusion of multiple art pieces on the front page is somewhat problematic since they are in different styles. The two line-art pieces on the right appear to be by the same artist and are done in the same style - therefore they complement each other and give your product a unifying 'identity'. The other two pieces - while they are fine pieces of art - are done in different styles. This is particularly true of the grayscale image on the upper left. It immediately jumped out at me when I looked at the front page.
   
2. The first paragraph on page 2, which is written as a letter/journal exerpt would benefit from either a different typeface or point size to separate it from the standard body copy used in the rest of the document. Perhaps setting these 'flavor text' bits off from the rest of the document with shaded boxes would help to clearly delineate them.
   
3. The section headers (ie., "Overview of the Valley, by Rudy VanRoland") should probably be centered rather left justified. The same applies to the quotation information for the flavor text (ie., "Rudy VanRoland, Exiled Doctor of the...").
   
4. It's good typesetting to keep your paragraphs together as much as possible. If the paragraphs must jump columns, it's a good idea to keep a minimum of two lines in each column. At the bottom of page 2, the first column ends with a single line from the next paragraph. That's another thing that jumped out at me.

As far as the border and the monster formatting goes, I had no problem with either. There is enough visual space between the border and the body copy that I don't think the border interferes with readability. And I actually like the artwork breaking up the columns of text as it does - particularly the borderless image at the bottom of page 4. It's a very appealing layout.

Hope this is more helpful than it is insulting.

Insulting? How?

Thanks for the info! As to the cover page, it will not be in the finished product, and was only created to show off part of the cover art and interior art not shown in the demo. I really could find no satisfactory way to do this, and finally settled on the setup you saw. The print and PDF final copy will get a color cover workup, and look nothing like the version you saw.

I like the shadowed box idea for the quotes. Works real well in my mind's eye. I will try it later and see how it looks in practice.


And just for general data: Since putting up the Preview, it has been downloaded over 200 times in the last 3 days. Have no idea what that means, but I thought some of you just might like the data for a lark.

 

[jmucchiello]

About both of these items: Seems they are up to personal taste as to who belives what. Since they really do not detract or add to the quality (as far as I can tell), I will probably leave them this way since that is what I'm most comforable with.

Actually the real problem is not the double spacing after a period, it is the fact that you justified every paragraph but there is not a single line that ends in a hyphen. Without hyphenation, justified text can generate lines that have .annoying .spacing. (And you don't need the double spacing either.)

1. Anyone else think the border should be greyed out more?

I dislike borders on pages in general and otherwise have no comment on it.

2. Was the format for the monster easy to read? Did the art layout style cause any problems?

Monster looks good. I would actually prefer that the whole PDF was done in the smaller font that you used for the monster. Face it, anyone who prints your PDF will probably appreciate using up less paper. I always use 9 point as my main body font size in PDFs.

 

[mroberon1972]

Actually the real problem is not the double spacing after a period, it is the fact that you justified every paragraph but there is not a single line that ends in a hyphen. Without hyphenation, justified text can generate lines that have .annoying .spacing. (And you don't need the double spacing either.)
I dislike borders on pages in general and otherwise have no comment on it.
Monster looks good. I would actually prefer that the whole PDF was done in the smaller font that you used for the monster. Face it, anyone who prints your PDF will probably appreciate using up less paper. I always use 9 point as my main body font size in PDFs.

Actually, I was torn on font size too. It came down to using the smallest that was comfortable to read on the screen, and 10 point was pushing it. 12 looked good.

Since I have a personal issue with monster stats on partial pages, I chose a 10 point font for it, but chose a 12 point font for the setting text for easy reading. Let's be honest, if they was to conserve paper they will usually either buy the print version or print two pages per page like most of us do when conserving toner/ink... Anyway, I matched the font size to the average printed book size. While WOtC prints smaller, they also give me headaches too, so that's no good.

It's a trade off.

Lastly, while hyphenation is an accepted form of saving both space and smoothing columns, I will not use it. I have never liked the use of hyphenation, nor do I condone it in any way. In fact: I hate it so much that I have put down books due to it's use in what I considered an excessive manner. Call it a person flaw and forgive me.

Curiosity: Why do you hate border art? Not trying to change your mind...

Also, remember this will be in print and PDF. The PDF will probably have a stripped version with minimal graphics...

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I may not use all of it, or agree with all of it, but I do read it and think about why I am doing what I am doing. That's a good thing in any case.

 

[Prest0]

On the subject of justification and hyphenation:

Professional layout programs (I don't remember if you ever said what you were using), usually allow you to limit the number of consecutive hypens. I set mine so that you never see two in a row unless I manually insert one for layout purposes. You can also adjust the justification parameters so that the words don't spread out too far.

Most of the egregious violations of good justification and hypenation are by designers who never bother change the parameters from the default settings. Ideally, in a well-implemented layout you'll read the text and never notice even notice the hypens or the justification.

 

[jmucchiello]

Actually, I was torn on font size too. It came down to using the smallest that was comfortable to read on the screen, and 10 point was pushing it. 12 looked good.

Reading on the screen is a user problem that Acrobat gives the user many tools to work with to make easier, i.e. ZOOM. Any PDF I make, I assume will be printed. PDFs are page oriented, unlike HTML, which is content oriented. Since the creator decides the page size, it makes sense that he does so from the point of view of printing said page. 12 point for me looks gargantuan on paper and on screen it also seems wasteful. I prefer as much information as possible in as small a space as possible in all ways I acquire information.

Let's be honest, if they was to conserve paper they will usually either buy the print version or print two pages per page like most of us do when conserving toner/ink...

I don't like reducing page count to conserve paper or toner. I do so to reduce SPACE. Carrying 20 sheets of paper weighs less and takes less space than 30 sheets of paper. And I will on occasion print 9-point pages 2-up and double sided.

Lastly, while hyphenation is an accepted form of saving both space and smoothing columns, I will not use it. I have never liked the use of hyphenation, nor do I condone it in any way. In fact: I hate it so much that I have put down books due to it's use in what I considered an excessive manner. Call it a person flaw and forgive me.

That's a bit pathological. But, if you aren't going to hyphenate, don't justify. Large spacings between words slow reading comprehension.

Curiosity: Why do you hate border art? Not trying to change your mind...

It distracts the eye as you reach the edges of the paper. When you learned to read, they didn't give you copies of Wired magazine to learn to read with, they gave you books with plain white borders. And those borders usually exceeded an inch in size. Your eye was trained to start scanning for the next line of text as it approached the white border. Squiggly lines and stuff in the place where the white space should be is a distraction. It adds no value to the content and is not needed for emphasis/deemphasis.

Also, remember this will be in print and PDF. The PDF will probably have a stripped version with minimal graphics...

Many pubs release both a full-color screen-only PDF with full graphics and a stripped, no-nonsense print PDF. Your sentense has the opposite meaning. If you are planning to professionally print your product, its layout should not be included with the PDF versions you intend to sell. Both the on-screen and for-print PDFs should be low resolution to facilllitate low download size. Printing the low-res PDF is no problem if there aren't any images in it. The document you send to the printer should have images with high resolution. No need to send that to people buying the PDF.

 

[mroberon1972]

Reading on the screen is a user problem that Acrobat gives the user many tools to work with to make easier, i.e. ZOOM. Any PDF I make, I assume will be printed. PDFs are page oriented, unlike HTML, which is content oriented. Since the creator decides the page size, it makes sense that he does so from the point of view of printing said page. 12 point for me looks gargantuan on paper and on screen it also seems wasteful. I prefer as much information as possible in as small a space as possible in all ways I acquire information.

Hmnn, points taken. In this case, though, I don't agree. I chose the 12 point size/font carefully, and it seem very comfortable to read. At 10 point, it becomes slightly less confortable. Perhaps it is my old age, but I want to be able to enjoy what I'm reading. In fact, I just checked it: It is the exact same size as several paper-back novels and other books I have.

While I welcome your opinions, in this case I have to disagree with them.

I don't like reducing page count to conserve paper or toner. I do so to reduce SPACE. Carrying 20 sheets of paper weighs less and takes less space than 30 sheets of paper. And I will on occasion print 9-point pages 2-up and double sided.

Fine, but the end result is the same.

That's a bit pathological. But, if you aren't going to hyphenate, don't justify. Large spacings between words slow reading comprehension.

Yup! It is. Your point it taken and implimented. Looks fine on the screen and on paper this way.

It distracts the eye as you reach the edges of the paper. When you learned to read, they didn't give you copies of Wired magazine to learn to read with, they gave you books with plain white borders. And those borders usually exceeded an inch in size. Your eye was trained to start scanning for the next line of text as it approached the white border. Squiggly lines and stuff in the place where the white space should be is a distraction. It adds no value to the content and is not needed for emphasis/deemphasis.

Been buying for years and never had this problem. You're right, though: Borders have no real value, other than astetics. I like borders, though, and am going to keep it. Remember: Most school textbooks were visually (and sometimes intellectually) BORING. I don't want mine to be reviewed in that light. There will be a pdf version with it gone, so this is a gone point for PDF. It is in for the Print (pre-printed) version.

Many pubs release both a full-color screen-only PDF with full graphics and a stripped, no-nonsense print PDF. Your sentense has the opposite meaning. If you are planning to professionally print your product, its layout should not be included with the PDF versions you intend to sell. Both the on-screen and for-print PDFs should be low resolution to facilllitate low download size. Printing the low-res PDF is no problem if there aren't any images in it. The document you send to the printer should have images with high resolution. No need to send that to people buying the PDF.

Umn, are we arguing on this point? Perhaps I did not make myself clear

Three versions:
1. Print version: Hardcopy with all the art and borders, with a color cover.
2. Printable PDF version: Lower quality graphics and borders, but same as #1.
3. Stripped PDF version: No borders, lower quality graphics.

Sorry I was unclear. I've been busy writing and ripping apart returned edit copies. I have been tending to slack off on e-mail and message board discourse.

Overall, I value your opinions. Please don't take it as a slight if I don't use them all.

 

[jmucchiello]

Overall, I value your opinions. Please don't take it as a slight if I don't use them all.

Truly, I would not expect or want you to agree with me 100%. Variety is good.

One thing I must know, you like 12 point on screen, what resolution is your desktop set to and what size is your monitor? I run at 1280 x 1024 on a 19 inch monitor (bumped to 1600x1200 when dealing with graphics) so 9 and 10 point fonts render quite nicely. I'm guessing you run a lower resolution on a smaller monitor. Larger fonts are needs as pixel density decreases to maintain crispness.