Opinions sought: Much younger players?

[Jeff Wilder]

Frankly, I'm pretty fascinated by this discussion, so keep it coming, as long as folks have something to say. There are a couple of data points and observations I want to inject:

First, I know my girlfriend's jealous behavior very well. This really is no form of jealousy. My girlfriend isn't in the slightest concerned about me -- her 39-year-old boyfriend -- developing a wandering eye -- or anything else -- for a 16-year-old girl. Truth is, if she were jealous, it would bug me much less, because her attitude toward D&D and every D&D player in the world -- except, of course, me and the few she actually knows personally -- is obnoxious, and one of the few serious issues in our relationship. Jealousy, however silly, is at least something I can sort of understand. But jealousy has rarely been a weakness of hers.

Her take on this is informed by some ultra-WASPY sense of propriety. (Which is strange enough, because she's Jewish ... ) It's not even concern for actual trouble, as some of y'all have expressed, but just concern over how things would look. And here's the kicker ... she feels that anybody reasonable would think it's improper, even if he or she understands completely what it's about and that it's entirely innocent. I feel like incrementing the twins' age, hypothetically, by a week at a time, and seeing exactly where she draws the line.

Second, I'm also a lawyer, so if my group and I do this, we'll protect ourselves (and them).

Third, it may of course be moot. If the twins' mom doesn't contact us, we won't allow them to observe or play again.

Fourth, unfortunately, game shop play isn't viable, due to schedules and other matters of logistics.

Fifth, regarding toning down language and such ... 16-year-olds differ. In my case, though I hung out with jocks and stoners in high school, I didn't start my swearing-like-a-sailor days until I was 21 or so. (I wasn't at all a goody-two-shoes ... I just hadn't developed the habit.) These kids seem younger than they actually are, so at the very least, we'd get to know them and let them calibrate the ribald-o-meter, at least within reason.

Sixth, if certain things here in the U.S. play out badly in November '08, I'll see about moving in with Steel_Wind.

Seventh, Mark is also a cool guy. Of the two of us, though, I am far less studly.

 

[Jack7]

I personally think you did everything you could, and in right order.

You were responsible and forthright.

I don't know how you could have the time to spend most every weekend gaming, or would want to at your age and being single, and I suspect that the mom might not be thrilled at her 16 year olds gaming every weekend, but I think the fact that you cared enough to question the way you went about things shows character and maturity.

Assuming you were honest about everything presented (and I'm not impugning your honesty, but one can never know just on the basis of what is said on the internet)
then you did well.

 

[kenobi65]

As my general take on the situation: it depends on the "kid" (and their parents).

When I was 17, and I finally found a "real" D&D group to play with, it was a group of folks in their 20s and 30s. I cleared it with my parents, who trusted me enough to not do anything dumb. That said, I was a 17-year-old boy; I think, unfortuantely, gender probably makes a difference.

These days, one of the groups I DM for is composed of folks between 40 and 65 years old. Last year, we had twin 17-year-old girls ask to join the group. They've been a great addition to the group, and are great fun to play with. However, their parents were members of the group once upon a time (they dropped out when they started having kids, which was before I joined the group), and they are still friends with several group members. So, we had the explicit approval of the twins' parents before they joined the group. If the twins' parents didn't have that pre-existing knowledge of some of the group members (and, a pre-existing acceptance of the game as a whole), I think it would have been far touchier.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I don't know how you could have the time to spend most every weekend gaming, or would want to at your age and being single

As far as time goes, I've made a decision to have a life, rather than advance as fast and far as I could otherwise, professionally and monetarily speaking. As far as desire goes, this is the one activity that the several of us -- close friends, all -- can get together and do on a regular basis. D&D is our golf or bowling league or bar night, so to speak. If I didn't make time for it, professional slackerdom notwithstanding, I still work so many hours that I would never see my friends.

But it is an issue sometimes, especially with the aforementioned girlfriend.

I suspect that the mom might not be thrilled at her 16 year olds gaming every weekend

That's an excellent point, and I should have been clearer ... if they joined the game, it would only be one of three games, so it would only be every other Sunday. (We alternate games and DMs on Sundays, and have yet a third DM who runs the game every other Saturday or so.)

 

[Jack7]

As far as time goes, I've made a decision to have a life, rather than advance as fast and far as I could otherwise, professionally and monetarily speaking. As far as desire goes, this is the one activity that the several of us -- close friends, all -- can get together and do on a regular basis. D&D is our golf or bowling league or bar night, so to speak. If I didn't make time for it, professional slackerdom notwithstanding, I still work so many hours that I would never see my friends.

But it is an issue sometimes, especially with the aforementioned girlfriend.

I think you might have misunderstood my point. I got nothing against gaming, or D&Ding. I try to recreate when I can and I game once a month or so. A little more during holidays.

What I'm saying is I personally couldn't stand doing the same recreational activity all of the time, anymore than I could stand working as, say a mill worker on the same machine every day. My work varies a great deal, as does my recreation - whether it be fishing, working out, throwing discus, gaming, shooting, go tracking, camping, going Vadding, exploring something, traveling, etc.

My point was that at your age, and being single, I'd be doing all kinds of things for recreation. I'm older than you and I do all kinds of things for recreation. But I do know that some people like consistency and to follow one activity, such as golf. I golf, but I could never do that all of the time. So I'm saying I don't see how you do it, because I'd be doing a lot of different activities.

I didn't mean it as a criticism, just as a psychological observation of how I couldn't stand that.
But different peoples is different. And that's what makes us all not the same.

But it is an issue sometimes, especially with the aforementioned girlfriend.

Yes, girlfriends and wives don't much enjoy playing second fiddle to anything.

if they joined the game, it would only be one of three games, so it would only be every other Sunday. (We alternate games and DMs on Sundays, and have yet a third DM who runs the game every other Saturday or so.)

Well then, that makes sense, and I suspect the mom might very well be able to live with once every two weeks as long as they aren't out till three or four in the morning every game.

And I still think you went about it the right way.
Godspeed to you then Jeff.

 

[Dread October]

Currently I'm 38 and for a while over the last 4 years I ran two groups. My Saturday group is all adults including some posters here (Eris404 and Kid Charlemange) but one day my downstairs neighbor knocked on my door. The neighbor has 3 boys and one had a birthday coming up. The parents asked if I'd run a game for the oldest kid, who at the time was a freshman in high school.

I ran a biweekly game for that group (9 teens and 1 adult) for a bout 4 years, until they all went off to college.

What I learned was that of the 9 kids, 3 of their parents ever bothered to meet me and actually have a conversation. I'm not including the family who lived in my house.

The kids would generally be picked up by their parents and some of these parents couldn't be bothered to actually walk up and ring my doorbell. There were a lot of cell calls and running out to the curb.

It was clear to me that most of the parents had enough confidence that I was ok based on my sharing a house with other parents they knew (and my being married proibably helped) but beyond that, the bulk of them never really wanted to get to know me if for any othere reason other than just knowing where their kids were on a friday nights.

To reduce the creep factor, I did have a few rules:

1. Keep it civil - Leave the High School social BS at High School. It took me a while to realize that all of these kids were not really friends with each other sta school They only really had one personal contact in the group and could be pretty clique-ish.

2. No swearing - At least when possible. If there was anyone in the room younger than them, I'd make sure to enforce it. One player had a 9 yo brother who liked to hang out too.

3. Earmuffs - Anytime a story of a certain level of color had to be told, someopne had to say earmuffs just to give the appearance that they knew a 9-13 yo was in the room.

4. Game time was consistant - Start at 7:00 and End at 10:30. The kids may not have wanted to go home and their parents may not have all cared but no one was gonna come back to me later and say I had teenagers at my house at all hours of the night.

5. No Booze or smoking - I don't smoke but I do drink. I don't drink with teenagers no matter how apathetic their parents. There may have been games where it took a vodka and tonic to deal with the hormones running rampant in the room. I'm no f'n saint.

6. Run the game for the moms - This rule was for me. I needed to make sure that whatever went on in that game would have been ok if I were running the game for the moms instead of the kids. This meant low incidents to no incidents of a "Vile" nature. No graphic torture, etc.

7. Be aware of the personalities of your players - Kids are crazy people. I had to know which players could handle things like character death and the loss of a favorite magic item.

The bottom linbe is that it can be a really kick to run a game for the "next generation" of gamers out there but it will work out best if ground rules are set and kept to AND with some level of parental involvement.

I couldn't have pulled it off without the support of the parents downstairs and perhaps one other set of parents who were appreciative.

Now, all of those "kids" are off at college but a few are doing college locally and one has actually joined the "Adult" group.


Good stuff...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'll be making 40 in October, and have been playing since I was 10, so I think that the game can be successfully introduced to kids at quite well at that age or older. However, I learned by playing with my peers- other kids taught me D&D and Traveller, and then I picked up Champions and other games on my own.

While I haven't run a true campaign with younger kids, I have initiated a few groups of kids into the hobby.

In each case, the parents knew me personally, knew I played RPGs, and asked ME to teach the kids the game. Because they knew me, they trusted me.

As long as you have all the right assurances in place, there is absolutely nothing wrong with gaming with younger kids.

If you have any concerns, there are several steps you can take:

1) Game at the kids house, or if you prefer hosting, have an open-door policy for the kids' parents.

2) Game in a public place- I started gaming in my school's library. Pizza parlors were another good place to game, at least in my youth.

3) Invite the parents to come to a session, even if they only observe, just so they can see what is going on. Ask them what their concerns are. The Occult?- Point out that the players are generally trying to defeat demons, not befriend them. Adult language & situations? If that's an actual concern in your game, perhaps you can tone it down a bit, or perhaps run a second, slightly cleaner campaign.

4) If all else fails and you can't convince the parents of your personal harmlessness or the wholesomeness of the game, you can always direct the kid to your FLGS.

Basically, our game is like any other hobby, or at least it should be. I see mixed age groups playing volleyball or hanging out in RC Hobby shops & venues. Of course, neither of those activities went through the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s- but really, the mere fact that we're slaying mathematical constructs called "demons" with mathematical constructs called "elves" shouldn't be cause for alarm.

(BTW, if anyone has a search feature, there was a massive thread a few years ago covering this same kind of subject, but the OP/DM was a teacher.)

 

[Tewligan]

Hm - I seem to be in the minority here, since I wouldn't take players that young into my group, but not due to any possible impropriety. I prefer to game with friends, or at least people with whom I have some things in common. At 36, I'm just not going to have much common ground with a 16-year-old, and I'm not inclined to give up my leisure time to hang out with them, honestly. I do salute people who are bringing fresh blood into the hobby, but I'm not going to be one of those people, unless the "fresh blood" consists of people who aren't young enough to be my children.

 

[billd91]

I don't think there's any problem with bringing in 16 year olds, except that you don't really know them well yet. You don't have an idea what upsets them, pushes their buttons, crosses their lines, etc. That's something you get with any new player, but I think is more of an issue with younger kids since they generally don't have the broader experience or intellectual development to put things in the same context a 30 year old would. Just be a little more cautious for a while until you know more about them.

I'd recommend having a background cookout for your players and invite the twins' parents over. Then they get a chance to feel out the gaming group their kids are getting themselves into. It should help you build a relationship with the parents and that could help build trust.

 

[hong]

I think you might have misunderstood my point. I got nothing against gaming, or D&Ding. I try to recreate when I can and I game once a month or so. A little more during holidays.

What I'm saying is I personally couldn't stand doing the same recreational activity all of the time, anymore than I could stand working as, say a mill worker on the same machine every day. My work varies a great deal, as does my recreation - whether it be fishing, working out, throwing discus, gaming, shooting, go tracking, camping, going Vadding, exploring something, traveling, etc.

I don't see where Jeff said that D&D was the ONLY thing he did....