Orb spells and Mettle

[Slaved]

I wonder if there is a feat, flaw, cursed item, race, or something similar that has the drawback that whenever they are effected by a spell they must make an extra fortitude or will save to avoid some further problem.

The paragon racial class for their race would grant mettle as its capstone ability.

 

[Andre]

Orb of Acid is "any spell with a saving throw entry of Fortitude Partial".

Prismatic Wall also has Fortitude partial listed for its fourth effect - if a hexblade saves against it (poison), does that negate all the remaining layers of the wall? Or only that particular layer?

If only a specific layer, then a reasonable interpretation of the orb spell is that there are two distinct effects, only one of which is affected by Mettle.

If all remaining layers are negated, then you end up with Mettle negating all sorts of effects, including many that even SR can't stop (glitterdust, for instance).

This looks like yet another example of WOTC defining the limits of a new ability by assuming - wrongly - that certain rules text (in this case, spell descriptions) is consistent.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If only a specific layer, then a reasonable interpretation of the orb spell is that there are two distinct effects, only one of which is affected by Mettle.

The sickening aspect of Orb of Acid doesn't have a lesser effect on a successful save; it has no effect on a successful save.

But we know that Orb of Acid is an attack that has a lesser effect on a successful save, because Mettle states that any spell that has a saving throw entry of Fortitude Partial is an attack that has a lesser effect on a successful save, and Orb of Acid is a spell that has a saving throw entry of Fortitude Partial.

Since the sickening aspect doesn't have a lesser effect on a successful save, but Orb of Acid is an attack that has a lesser effect on a successful save, it can't be the sickening aspect taken in isolation to which Mettle is referring; it must be Orb of Acid. So if the save is successful, Orb of Acid is negated.

Prismatic Wall doesn't have a saving throw entry of Fortitude Partial; it has a saving throw entry of See Text. So Prismatic Wall is not, automatically, an attack that has a lesser effect on a successful save. Mettle would negate the Con damage from the Green wall, but it would not necessarily have an effect on the rest of the wall.

The Fortitude Partial save doesn't apply to the sickening aspect of Orb of Acid; if it did, it would be Fortitude Negates! The Fortitude Partial save applies to Orb of Acid.

The Fortitude Partial save doesn't apply to Prismatic Wall; instead, it applies to the Green layer of Prismatic Wall.

-Hyp.

 

[Andre]

Hyp, I follow your reasoning and it makes perfect sense if one assumes that (partial) saves are used in a consistent manner, which given WOTC's track record, I don't.

I'll bring up glitterdust yet again. Per your interpretation, it has a main effect and a lesser effect. The main effect is coating and blindness, the lesser effect is coating only. So if a hexblade makes his save, the coating somehow "falls off" him? It will stick to an epic creature with SR 50, but not the hexblade?

I can see the logic in that position, but personally it's not convincing. :\

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp, I follow your reasoning and it makes perfect sense if one assumes that (partial) saves are used in a consistent manner, which given WOTC's track record, I don't.

I'll bring up glitterdust yet again. Per your interpretation, it has a main effect and a lesser effect. The main effect is coating and blindness, the lesser effect is coating only. So if a hexblade makes his save, the coating somehow "falls off" him? It will stick to an epic creature with SR 50, but not the hexblade?

Glitterrdust, again, doesn't have a saving throw entry of 'Will Half', but of 'Will negates (blinding only)'. So the text of Mettle doesn't automatically throw the Glitterdust spell into the category of 'attacks that have a lesser effect on a successful save'. I can see arguments either way.

If Orb of Acid had a saving throw entry of 'Fortitude negates (sickening only)', I think there could be arguments either way as to whether Mettle affects the damage. But with an entry of 'Fortitude Partial', given that the only things Orb of Acid imposes are a/ damage, and b/ a sickening effect completely negated by a Fort save, I think the wording of Mettle allows for no other result than damage negated by the Fort save.

-Hyp.

 

[Andre]

Glitterrdust, again, doesn't have a saving throw entry of 'Will Half', but of 'Will negates (blinding only)'. So the text of Mettle doesn't automatically throw the Glitterdust spell into the category of 'attacks that have a lesser effect on a successful save'. I can see arguments either way.

If Orb of Acid had a saving throw entry of 'Fortitude negates (sickening only)', I think there could be arguments either way as to whether Mettle affects the damage. But with an entry of 'Fortitude Partial', given that the only things Orb of Acid imposes are a/ damage, and b/ a sickening effect completely negated by a Fort save, I think the wording of Mettle allows for no other result than damage negated by the Fort save.

-Hyp.

Your argument is getting stronger, but I still don't like it...

Fortunately my current group isn't using the Hexblade, so we don't have to worry about this.

 

[Machiavelli]

Of course, the Pious Templar and others offer Mettle, but as long as nobody in your group takes those relatively few options, none of this is a concern.

As for Prismatic Wall and Gitterdust, Hyp makes a very good point, strictly adhering to the rules as best as I can tell, about the "Saves:..." entries for those spells. I would come to the same conclusion about those spells that he has, but for another reason: the Mettle ability is a personal resistance only (like a save is, anyway), and those spells are not targeted specifically for a single character. Even if the Glitterdust outline were to fall off, it work still work just fine on the characters without Mettle. At least, it would if I were in charge of the adjudication.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Cloudkill is perhaps a better example than Glitterdust, since it's an Effect spell with a Fort Partial save

-Hyp.

 

[Klaus]

On a successful save, a Hexblade completely ignores the Cloudkill.

Other creatures in the area aren't so lucky (i.e., the effect isn't dispelled or anything).

 

[hong]

These examples so far are pretty straightforward. However, didn't someone post an example of a spell where the Fort save is made after several rounds, implying that if you succeeded then, all the damage taken prior to that point would automagically disappear...?