Orcs preview

[Peter LaCara]

If one assumes minions will only ever fight level-appropriate PCs whose damage output is greater than their presumed hit points, yeah.



I looked for a power in all entries, and couldn't find one which was universal. If it's Warrior's Surge, your logic makes sense, but again, why not call this out so it's obvious?

Because it's obvious. Why waste the space?

It seems that there's an implicit "Don't worry about how it all works" attitude in the 4e rules. On the one hand, this makes design easy -- pick some random numbers that are 'close to' the numbers in the book. On the other hand, if you don't understand where those numbers came from, it's harder to see the consequences of changing them or know if you've 'cascaded' the values through properly.

The values don't have to cascade anymore. The upshot of just picking numbers from the book is that you don't have to worry about all that, and you can feel free to fiddle with things without unbalancing them.

 

[Alkiera]

I just realized the one thing that was missing from the orc preview. There needs to be an Orc Overseer, whose main special ability is called "Where There's A Whip, There's A Way."

<derail>
I really wanted to like Burning Wheel, but I couldn't get my players into it. They like some of the mechanics, but can't seem to get into the goal-based RP mindset... and one of my players hates the 3-panel combat format. Without them actually pushing plot ideas, I have nothing to run, as I'm not all that creative. With D&D I mostly run published adventures.
</derail>

More on topic, I did note the lack of leadership among orcs. The two sorta-Leaders were multi-classed into it from Brute or Controller. Fitting, I suppose, for Chaotic creatures.

 

[Lizard]

Lizard,

(1&7)You can fight orcs at first level just fine... use the 4th lvl drudge minions(44xp each, quite a few in 500 xp), maybe 2-3 skirmishers, etc. PCs can fight enemies above their level with some success. It'll be tough, but doable. I wouldn't include the controller/leader types until they've got a few levels, though.

Fair enough, I'm still thinking monster level==opponent level. Doing it by XP is interesting.

(6) Hitpoints aren't physical damage. A bloodied orc doesn't need a hospital, he needs a nap, maybe a roll of gauze. You don't need a hospital until hp reach 0 or less.

And since monsters die at 0HP without DM fiat, not even then. I guess this is why you see few Orc hospitals. Hmm. I guess the adventure "Raid On Orc General" wasn't what I thought it was...

As a side note, the bloodrager is one nasty bastich, I will give them that.

 

[keterys]

Leader is a subrole/tag that adds on to one of the main monster roles - I don't think they have Leader on its own.

 

[Lacyon]

If one assumes minions will only ever fight level-appropriate PCs whose damage output is greater than their presumed hit points, yeah.

That's the purpose of minions.

If they're way overlevelled, they're already defended by their higher defense scores, and they're almost certainly hitting too often, and as a result doing more damage than they should. If you want them not to die in one hit, replace them with something closer to the right level.

If they're only a bit overlevelled, their hp total would still be such that a single hit could kill them, and there's only so much point to making the PCs roll against it (seriously, IIRC, none of the first-level pregens does less than 5 damage on an average hit. Does it matter much if the orc minion has 4 HP instead of 1?).

If they're underlevelled, their hp matters even less.

I looked for a power in all entries, and couldn't find one which was universal. If it's Warrior's Surge, your logic makes sense, but again, why not call this out so it's obvious?

They almost certainly will in the appendix where "monster as PC stats" are supposedly located.

It seems that there's an implicit "Don't worry about how it all works" attitude in the 4e rules. On the one hand, this makes design easy -- pick some random numbers that are 'close to' the numbers in the book. On the other hand, if you don't understand where those numbers came from, it's harder to see the consequences of changing them or know if you've 'cascaded' the values through properly.

It's easier to see the gameplay consequences of changing numbers, because your changes are explicity put in the context of making a level X challenge instead of adding class features and hit dice to monsters and recalculating every derived value from that.

I'm not sure why it's necessary to 'cascade' the values properly. I used to think it was a good idea, but I've since come to the conclusion that it's usually a waste of my time. I don't typically end up with a better-balanced monster at the end, and I also don't tend to have players who make me show my work when a monster surprises them by being better or worse at something than it "should" be.

Give me a simpler system that's designed primarily around being able to accurately judge how tough of a fight the monster represents any day.

 

[keterys]

One important thing to realize about using higher level monsters is that they have higher defenses and attacks. So, if you're using an orc warrior instead of a kobold skirmisher, it'll hit your defender easier and be harder to hit.

When it does get hit, it'll definitely go down in one shot though, whereas the skirmisher takes a couple.

Personally, I'm finding that players are missing a lot isn't terribly satisfying, so I'd only up the level so far, especially for certain roles (soldier, I'm looking at you!)

 

[hong]

Overlevelled minions are playing GURPS in D&D!

 

[LostInTheMists]

As for hacking with clubs - obviously, the club design is exception-based.

Curse you. My monitor is now covered in Dr. Pepper. *shakes fist*

 

[GorTeX]

Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.

I'm curious now. Why do you base your opinion on the quality of Armor by the amount the AC is over their Reflex defense?

By this method, the Orc Raider (wearing leather) has worse armor than the Orc Raider (wearing leather) (+2 vs +3), while the Orc Raider's armor (leather) is just as good as the Orc Chieftain's Chainmail (both +3 over relflex)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What it boils down to is, I don't see what this system gives me that "Humanoid+levels" didn't.

Hope and Change.