Orcs used to be Lawful Evil

[BiggusGeekus]

Coming in late to the discussion.....

I agree. Orcs are LE. I was dissapointed by the change, but I moved on. I have never really cared about hobgoblin alignment.

That being said, while I use alignment in my game, I have a bit of a freewheeling approach to it. So it has yet to come up, which is a little remarkable since I've used any one of a number of orc sorcerors and adepts.

 

[francisca]

So what's the point of this thread? Well, I'm just wondering if any old-school players have gotten a little irritated by small changes like this? Where is the line that you draw between respecting "tradition" and making changes that are "convienient" to the new rules/new "look".

I'll take a shot at this. I don't believe in change just for the hell of it. I don't know why, nor really care, why the designers decided to change the Orc's alignment. In the big picture, it does not alter how I play the game.

Now the change in the Gnome's preferred class does make a tangible difference, as it affects the class choices for players and DMs (when making NPCs). Some of us who came up through previous editions are used to (if not like) gnome illusionists, and it bothered us. Sure you can house rule it, like I did. But, I had to tell the players, "Hey, I'm making a change to the core rules." The Orcish alignment issue can largley be ignored, with obvious exceptions like aligned weapons, etc.. I still have yet to see a good reason for the change in the Gnome's preferred class, so I think they should have followed tradition (whatever that really means).

Another big change was Clerics. I welcome the lifting of weapon restrictions. I like the idea that evil clerics can use blades. Especially Clerics of Nerull, with their big, nasty Scythes. That was a tradition that was glad to see go. And as a DM, I have plenty of leeway. Playing a Cleric of St. Cuthbert? Better be using that mace, sonny.

Now if they would have done something like, I dunno, make Red Dragons breathe Lightning, or all of the dragons breathe fire, I would have been scratching my head wondering what they were smoking. (BTW, all dragons in my homebrew breathe fire, they're basically all red, but I sure wouldn't want the others taken out of the game.)

All of the above examples pale in comparison to the changes in mechanics.

So where do I come down on tradition vs. change? Well for flavor issues, at least have changes make sense, please. Leave the core game alone as much as possible, as there is a certain amount of expectation. DMs have plenty of leeway to alter things as they see fit. The D&D police are unlikely to kick in my door and haul me away for playing LG Fire Giants.

So, don't let the change in Orc alignment ruin the fun for you. I didn't.

 

[dead]

The basic question of this thread was based on the fallacy that D&D orcs were originally lawful evil. They were first recorded under the two-component alignment system as chaotic evil. 3E just "corrected" this.

I'm sorry you read it that way. I used the orcs just as an example for the question posed. The question was not "based" on the example. And I don't think some people would agree with you that it's a "fallacy". Most AD&D/3E players, I think, only acknowledge AD&D 1E and 2E and, if you're lucky, OD&D. Not Basic D&D (which is a different "world").

So, it's 2 to 1 Lawful Evil, I think.

Nevertheless, I play my orcs CHAOTIC evil. I never really used orcs up until 3E. I always used things like gnolls, bugbears, goblins, kobolds, ogres, etc.

So now that you know my orcs are CHAOTIC evil, do I join the club?

 

[Perun]

I perceive orcs as CE, pretty much as they're presented in the MM. However, I always thought that orcs are much more likely to interract with goblins (read: use them as slaves), even if they don't belong to the same group of creatures (different subtypes). This doesn't mean they don't have a proper society, or a culture. But, these are based on violence, and looked over by the everpresent shamans (currently represented by adepts form DMG) (orc deities are sort of involved in the orcs' everyday existence, via shamans).
Hobgoblins, OTOH, have a militaristic culture, and are LE. I'd say they wouldn't want anything to do with neither the orcs (too savage and stupid) nor with goblins (small, pathetic, dirty critters). I see hobgoblins as sort-of klingons (even id it's somewhat of a cliche).
Bugbears, IMO, won't have anything to do with none of the mentioned creatures. They have their own deities (which sets them apart from the other goblinoids), they have a different mindset from that of hobgoblins (although they are tougher, bigger and stronger, they tend to prefer sneaky tactics and ambush, and don't care for honour one way or another), and are even less likely to associate with goblins.

 

[Kalanyr]

Well I did kind of use Lawful Evil orcs in an adventure I wrote for a group I played with in 2e (admittedly thats because they were organised by Orogs, with Hobgoblin overseers). Can't really think of any other time I've really used Orcs with a formal structured society.

 

[Ogrebear]

Oddist tihng I ever did with Orc alignment was to have an entire tribe infected by a Werebear. Whole tribe of LG shapeshifters fighting the evil of their own brethren......

Amazing to watch players faces when LG Orc Werebear Paladin turn out to be the contact the Adventurers Guild had sent them to meet.......

 

[orsal]

If Orcs are the regimented ones, then why did Gary create Hobgoblins? They were the ones descibed in the 1E monster manual as being regimented, whereas the Orcs were described as much more tribal.

In one of the Gygax Q&A threads, he mentioned wanting to plug a gap in a sequence of evil humanoids arranged by power level: kobold, goblin, orc, [need one here], gnoll, ogre, giant. So even if cultural and physical characteristics (apart from size, strength and related features) had exactly duplicated someone else in the series, he would still have wanted another monster at that level.

 

[Kalendraf]

During my 1e days, our group could not figure out why orcs were listed as Lawful evil. Based on several of their text descriptions and the creatures they tended to hang out with (ogres, etc), it seemed to us like they should have been chaotic evil instead.

So when they got switched to chaotic evil in 3e, I guess I figured that was just another long-awaited rules fix that made sense. Obviously, from a mechanics stand-point, it may have been done purely to allow barbarian as a favored class. But to me, orcs have always seemed more chaotic than lawful, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on changing this.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Oddist tihng I ever did with Orc alignment was to have an entire tribe infected by a Werebear. Whole tribe of LG shapeshifters fighting the evil of their own brethren......

Amazing to watch players faces when LG Orc Werebear Paladin turn out to be the contact the Adventurers Guild had sent them to meet.......

Hilarious!

 

[Zappo]

Tolkien orcs are pretty much as chaotic as they get, so making them chaotic is actually more traditional.