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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
You mean like your post? Essentially you just set up a straw man version of one of several complaints about the new movies. You set up the argument in an irrational way. Then you proceeded to claim that your irrational version of the complaint proved the complaint was irrational.

No. I gave a point about human cognition which is pretty well established, and then gave one demonstrative example, chosen for convenience.

I don't think I've ever encountered a complaint about the character of Rey that matched the argument you just gave.

A rational and logical understanding of statistics should leave you with the expectation that your own personal experience is not terribly relevant, as it likely does not represent a good sampling.

Your post strikes me as a rationalization itself that doesn't hold up under scrutiny, because while no one I've encountered claims that the new trilogy is bad solely or even mostly because of Rey...

So much to unpack.

First, as above - your personal experience is not reliably representative. You probably should stop holding that up as support.

More importantly, please show me where I said, "People claim the new trilogy is bad solely or even mostly because of Rey."

Because, I didn't say that. Or anything like that. I gave a very short analysis of one argument, to show how emotional bias is likely present. What you came out with... is thoroughly unrelated. If you needed a reductive form of what I said, it would be more, "People claim the new trilogy is bad for emotional reasons, rather than rational reasons." Those paying close attention would also note I think that's valid, if you admit to the emotional bias.

You don't seem to be responding to what's actually written - folks may decide for themselves if that seems ironic to them, given the point I was making. In any case, thank you, but I'm done discussing this with you.
 

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Vael

Hero
I mean, that's because most of the nitpickers saw the Originals when they were kids. And do you know what?

The new movies might be good, and all, but you can't snuggle into you NEW MOVIE sheets while playing with your NEW MOVIE action figures and pretending that you're NEW MOVIE Luke Skywaker ... pew pew pew.

Man, growing up sucks. All that happens for most of us is we get better verbiage to talk about the things we liked as kids, and to trash the things that kids today like.

And that's all well and good, but then there should be some intellectual honestly about it. For example, when it comes to Star Trek, The Next Generation will always be my favourite. It was the one I watched growing up. One of my oldest memories is seeing "Encounter at Farpoint". I remember the summer between "Best of Both Worlds Part 1" and part 2, wondering how they'd defeat the Borg and save Picard. And I can still say that the way they chose was crap, and that DS9 is the superior series, and I can still honestly discuss all of TNG's flaws.

But for some reason, it still seems like the OT is still treated like holy scripture, and the new wave as pretenders. And it creates double standards that ... well ... tbh, comes across as pretty repugnant. I've read too many "critiques" of Rey that read like dog whistle misogyny, and it doesn't help that Luke is above reproach.
 

Celebrim

Legend
You don't get out much. This kind of argument that Umbran is talking about comes up frequently. She's a Mary Sue, not Luke or Anakin (for whatever deranged reasons). The double-standard comes up a lot, even on these boards.

Ok, I'll try to explain the complaint against Rey and why it is not a double standard, but based on a comparative and real flaw in the writing. Keep in mind that I'm not sure the problem with Rey would make my top 10 list, but it is a real flaw. The problem with Umbran's argument is that it deliberately simplifies the argument down to something that does sound ridiculous, but then you can do that with any argument.

So, as I said, I thought the initial introduction of Rey was pretty good. In her establishing scenes we learn that she is a self-reliant scrounger living on a desert planet, and that she's learned how to survive. This is pretty good background, but it does - I think deliberately - invite comparison to Luke. Both are 'orphans' (or so we think) on desert planet dreaming dreams of far far away. Rey's costuming even calls out Luke's costuming to some degree. So, here is our new Luke. Luke, as I argued earlier, is a character that is about to embark on a Bildingsroman. He's about to be involved in this archetypal coming of age story which involve him discovering and learning to use his powers after many trials and hardships.

What story is Rey about to be involved in? It doesn't have to be the same one as Luke's of course, but what challenge is Rey intended to face? Let's look at Rey and Luke point by point.

Luke early on is beaten unconscious in an encounter with sand people, and has to be rescued by Obi Wan Kenobi - a veteran wizard-knight who will mentor Luke for a while. Rey on the other hand early after we are introduced to her, beats several thugs up using her staff - the first of several demonstrations that learning to fight will not be one of the challenges Rey is faced with.

We learn Luke is a bush pilot, but in an early scene he is speaking with a real experienced pilot about actual travel between the stars, and Han Solo puts Luke in his place real quick by saying, "Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops kid..." In Rey's case however, when she encounters the same veteran space pilot, she actually puts him in his place aboard his own ship, by demonstrating greater competency and understanding than he has. So clearly that isn't one of the challenge she has to face either.

Nor for that matter is learning Wookie a problem. She immediately is conversant with Chewbacca as well. Exactly why, we don't know, but she definitely won't be needing a translator droid or an astromech droid. She has those skills covered as well. Compare with Luke's struggles with alien cultures when he's thrust into the unfamiliar territory of the Mos Eisley cantina, and again needs rescuing by more experienced characters.

A bit later on, Rey - having just learned that the force exists - uses a Jedi Mind trick, demonstrating remarkable control of the force without the need to practice or to struggle. So clearly that isn't going to be a challenge she has to overcome either. Right from the first time she encounters the Black Knight nemesis of Kylo Ren - the Darth Vader to her Luke - she is a match for him in every respect. Although Kylo Ren demonstrates a degree of control of the dark side of the force that is the equal of his idol Vader, Rey is able from the first encounter to defeat him. Compare with Luke, who is saved from Vader in the first movie only by the timely arrival of others (Han and the spirit of Obi Wan), and is defeated by Vader almost completely to the point of trying to escape by suicide in the second movie.

Likewise, in the second movie, when Luke goes to train with Master Yoda, we are treated to a montage of scenes of failure - his arrogant angry dismissal of Yoda because he doesn't match his biases, his failure to control his fear and emotion in the cave, his failure with the X-Wing. Throughout the training, Yoda is continually disappointed in him, and repeatedly reminds Luke of his weakness. No one ever reminds Rey of her weakness (except arguably the villains, who in doing so are being villainous). For one thing, Rey doesn't really seem to have one. Immediately upon beginning to train Rey, Luke is awed by her. Luke is impressed. She has phenomenal power. He doesn't really have anything to teach her, and he not she is for the purposes of the story the one who is in the wrong and needs to learn something. So clearly acquiring power and wisdom are not challenges Rey is going to have to face.

Oh yes, and she's a skilled pilot as well.

In RPGs, you have an ensemble cast, and in an ensemble cast there are two things about a character you want to avoid. You can't have a PC that is good at nothing and contributes nothing. If you do, you have a Jar Jar Binks. Nor can you have a PC that is good at everything and who needs nothing, because then there isn't any way to share the story. Indeed, there isn't really any story, because that PC doesn't really have any challenges to overcome by themselves or with the help of friends. On this spectrum, Rey is much closer to the PC that doesn't need anything. No one is allowed to put Rey in her place. No one is allowed to remind Rey of her weaknesses. Rey for the most part doesn't need rescuing. She is in fact self-reliant.

But this raises the question, "What story are you planning to tell with this character? What did you have in mind when you conceived her?" Or to put it another way, "What is the central conflict that the story is going to resolve?"

It's not just that Rey is a pilot and Luke is a pilot. It's not just any one of this points which by themselves aren't all that important. It's all these points taken together that demonstrate the problem.

You see with Luke, because of all of his weaknesses and failures, when he gets to the moment where he can say, "I am a Jedi like my Father before me", it is a moment of tremendous power because he has arrived at the end of the road that he unknowingly glimpsed when he was staring off at the Tatooine horizon. We the audience didn't clearly see where that road was going, anymore than Luke did, but we struggled along with him.

Rey isn't even on a path. And since she hasn't struggled, when this story finishes, it won't have been a journey and not mysteriously it's going to feel pretty hollow however they decide to finish it, because Rey really hasn't had any movement with her character and it isn't clear what interesting things you could do with it. I could I suppose be wrong and there be some deep and meaningful conflict that has been well foreshadowed, and suddenly all the Chekov Guns are going to come off the wall and there will be a deep and dramatic tying up of threads, but I'm IMNSHO a pretty good writer, and I don't think that's going to happen.

That's the argument against Rey as a character.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
But for some reason, it still seems like the OT is still treated like holy scripture...

What? Who? No. It's well established even in the fan community that the OT has some flaws. It's however not I think unreasonable to suggest that given the dramatic impact that they had on movie making and the culture and the popularity and lasting critical acclaim that they received, that they were pretty good and indeed historically important movies. But, certainly not 'holy scripture'.

And it creates double standards that ... well ... tbh, comes across as pretty repugnant. I've read too many "critiques" of Rey that read like dog whistle misogyny, and it doesn't help that Luke is above reproach.

What double standard? Luke is for much of the OT a whiny, unlikable, and often bumbling young man. How is he above reproach?

The statements you are making here about what is supposedly in other people's minds are bizarre.
 

Celebrim

Legend
If you needed a reductive form of what I said, it would be more, "People claim the new trilogy is bad for emotional reasons, rather than rational reasons."

But I am making the claim that that argument itself is one motivated by emotion and not reason, and that - while it might be true of some individuals - it is not true of "people". Many of the arguments against he new trilogy have rationally constructed arguments behind them that were not retroactively invented just to justify their own emotional reaction.

Your reductive form "People claim the new trilogy is bad for emotional reasons, rather than rational reasons." is simply an emotional attempt to dismiss criticism of the movie. There might be some examples outside of my experience, but those examples wouldn't justify your unqualified claim.
 

Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
Ok, I'll try to explain the complaint against Rey and why it is not a double standard, but based on a comparative and real flaw in the writing. Keep in mind that I'm not sure the problem with Rey would make my top 10 list, but it is a real flaw. The problem with Umbran's argument is that it deliberately simplifies the argument down to something that does sound ridiculous, but then you can do that with any argument.

So, as I said, I thought the initial introduction of Rey was pretty good. In her establishing scenes we learn that she is a self-reliant scrounger living on a desert planet, and that she's learned how to survive. This is pretty good background, but it does - I think deliberately - invite comparison to Luke. Both are 'orphans' (or so we think) on desert planet dreaming dreams of far far away. Rey's costuming even calls out Luke's costuming to some degree. So, here is our new Luke. Luke, as I argued earlier, is a character that is about to embark on a Bildingsroman. He's about to be involved in this archetypal coming of age story which involve him discovering and learning to use his powers after many trials and hardships.

What story is Rey about to be involved in? It doesn't have to be the same one as Luke's of course, but what challenge is Rey intended to face? Let's look at Rey and Luke point by point.

Luke early on is beaten unconscious in an encounter with sand people, and has to be rescued by Obi Wan Kenobi - a veteran wizard-knight who will mentor Luke for a while. Rey on the other hand early after we are introduced to her, beats several thugs up using her staff - the first of several demonstrations that learning to fight will not be one of the challenges Rey is faced with.

We learn Luke is a bush pilot, but in an early scene he is speaking with a real experienced pilot about actual travel between the stars, and Han Solo puts Luke in his place real quick by saying, "Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops kid..." In Rey's case however, when she encounters the same veteran space pilot, she actually puts him in his place aboard his own ship, by demonstrating greater competency and understanding than he has. So clearly that isn't one of the challenge she has to face either.

Nor for that matter is learning Wookie a problem. She immediately is conversant with Chewbacca as well. Exactly why, we don't know, but she definitely won't be needing a translator droid or an astromech droid. She has those skills covered as well. Compare with Luke's struggles with alien cultures when he's thrust into the unfamiliar territory of the Mos Eisley cantina, and again needs rescuing by more experienced characters.

A bit later on, Rey - having just learned that the force exists - uses a Jedi Mind trick, demonstrating remarkable control of the force without the need to practice or to struggle. So clearly that isn't going to be a challenge she has to overcome either. Right from the first time she encounters the Black Knight nemesis of Kylo Ren - the Darth Vader to her Luke - she is a match for him in every respect. Although Kylo Ren demonstrates a degree of control of the dark side of the force that is the equal of his idol Vader, Rey is able from the first encounter to defeat him. Compare with Luke, who is saved from Vader in the first movie only by the timely arrival of others (Han and the spirit of Obi Wan), and is defeated by Vader almost completely to the point of trying to escape by suicide in the second movie.

Likewise, in the second movie, when Luke goes to train with Master Yoda, we are treated to a montage of scenes of failure - his arrogant angry dismissal of Yoda because he doesn't match his biases, his failure to control his fear and emotion in the cave, his failure with the X-Wing. Throughout the training, Yoda is continually disappointed in him, and repeatedly reminds Luke of his weakness. No one ever reminds Rey of her weakness (except arguably the villains, who in doing so are being villainous). For one thing, Rey doesn't really seem to have one. Immediately upon beginning to train Rey, Luke is awed by her. Luke is impressed. She has phenomenal power. He doesn't really have anything to teach her, and he not she is for the purposes of the story the one who is in the wrong and needs to learn something. So clearly acquiring power and wisdom are not challenges Rey is going to have to face.

Oh yes, and she's a skilled pilot as well.

In RPGs, you have an ensemble cast, and in an ensemble cast there are two things about a character you want to avoid. You can't have a PC that is good at nothing and contributes nothing. If you do, you have a Jar Jar Binks. Nor can you have a PC that is good at everything and who needs nothing, because then there isn't any way to share the story. Indeed, there isn't really any story, because that PC doesn't really have any challenges to overcome by themselves or with the help of friends. On this spectrum, Rey is much closer to the PC that doesn't need anything. No one is allowed to put Rey in her place. No one is allowed to remind Rey of her weaknesses. Rey for the most part doesn't need rescuing. She is in fact self-reliant.

But this raises the question, "What story are you planning to tell with this character? What did you have in mind when you conceived her?" Or to put it another way, "What is the central conflict that the story is going to resolve?"

It's not just that Rey is a pilot and Luke is a pilot. It's not just any one of this points which by themselves aren't all that important. It's all these points taken together that demonstrate the problem.

You see with Luke, because of all of his weaknesses and failures, when he gets to the moment where he can say, "I am a Jedi like my Father before me", it is a moment of tremendous power because he has arrived at the end of the road that he unknowingly glimpsed when he was staring off at the Tatooine horizon. We the audience didn't clearly see where that road was going, anymore than Luke did, but we struggled along with him.

Rey isn't even on a path. And since she hasn't struggled, when this story finishes, it won't have been a journey and not mysteriously it's going to feel pretty hollow however they decide to finish it, because Rey really hasn't had any movement with her character and it isn't clear what interesting things you could do with it. I could I suppose be wrong and there be some deep and meaningful conflict that has been well foreshadowed, and suddenly all the Chekov Guns are going to come off the wall and there will be a deep and dramatic tying up of threads, but I'm IMNSHO a pretty good writer, and I don't think that's going to happen.

That's the argument against Rey as a character.

The problem with all of this is that it's demonstrably wrong. You cannot watch either TFA and TLJ with anything close to an objective lens and then say with a straight face that Rey "hasn't struggled". Literally her entire arc in TFA is a series of failures that she must still learn to persevere through. There is literally no other possible accurate reading of her arc in that film.

Because the actual text does not support what you and many other critics of Rey's character want to assume to about her, you have resorted to making things up and ignoring reality in substitution of your own. There is absolutely no reason to accept such arguments as being made in good faith. That is the emotional argument that Umbran is referring to.
 

Celebrim

Legend
The problem with all of this is that it's demonstrably wrong. You cannot watch either TFA and TLJ with anything close to an objective lens and then say with a straight face that Rey "hasn't struggled". Literally her entire arc in TFA is a series of failures that she must still learn to persevere through. There is literally no other possible accurate reading of her arc in that film.

Because the actual text does not support what you and many other critics of Rey's character want to assume to about her, you have resorted to making things up and ignoring reality in substitution of your own. There is absolutely no reason to accept such arguments as being made in good faith. That is the emotional argument that Umbran is referring to.

Excuse me, but this is a naked assertion without any evidence. (Or as Monty Python would note, it's just contradiction, not an argument.) I cited specific instances from both trilogies. You have declared me demonstrably wrong but made no attempt at proving this by citing the "actual text".

Therefore, which of us ought to be considered to be arguing in "good faith"?
 
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Vael

Hero
What double standard? Luke is for much of the OT a whiny, unlikable, and often bumbling young man. How is he above reproach?

The statements you are making here about what is supposedly in other people's minds are bizarre.

And yet Luke's competence is never questioned, while Rey is dismissed as a Mary Sue for showing similar skills. This is such a repeated argument that one Star Wars podcast I was listening to makes it a punchline. Look at your massive attack on Rey's character, which I'm not quoting. You elevate Luke at every opportunity to dismiss Rey.
 

Celebrim

Legend
And yet Luke's competence is never questioned...

But Luke isn't marked by competence.

while Rey is dismissed as a Mary Sue for showing similar skills.

But Rey has vastly broader and deeper skills than Luke.

Look at your massive attack on Rey's character, which I'm not quoting.

Of course you won't, because you can't. I didn't make one attack on Rey's character at all. I made no disparaging comments about her at all. Indeed, I attributed to her wisdom, power, cunning, martial prowess, technical competency, and heck even likability. She's the full package.

You elevate Luke at every opportunity to dismiss Rey.

This is so demonstrably backwards of everything, that you are obviously emotionally overwrought. The argument I developed didn't elevate Luke at all. My entire argument was based around showing just how immature, unskilled, whiny, and well wrong Luke was again and again in the OT trilogy. I wasn't creating an argument around building him up, but on showing how weak he really was. How many times does Han Solo save his life? How many times does Obi Wan Kenobi save his life? Yes, Luke has some core competencies, but one of the classic complaints you will hear from people who don't like the OT is just how unlikable Luke is through much of the trilogy. "But I wanted to go to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters" is a meme.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Lukes whiny annoying and impulsive for most of the first two movies. And gets his ass handed to him multiple times.

It's RotJ Luke people like. ANH it's Han people like.

Let's face it in a few years no one's going to care that much about the new character s and that's entirely bon the writer's. The actors themselves are better than the OT ones (Hamill wasn't great ANH let's face it).

Character development wasn't as good as the OT. There was no chemistry like Han plus Leia. Poe and Rey barely interacted.
 
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Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
Excuse me, but this is a naked assertion without any evidence. I cited specific instances from both trilogies. You have declared me demonstrably wrong but made no attempt at proving this by citing the "actual text".

Therefore, which of us ought to be considered to be arguing in "good faith"?

I've gone done this road so many times in so many threads, but sure, what's one more

Here is Rey's arc in TFA:
1) Tries to convince Luke to return to help save the Resistance: Abject failure. Luke does eventually have his "stand down the entire army with a laser sword" moment, but not until after Rey's left him behind and Yoda's force ghost shows up to knock sense into him.
2) Tries to convince Luke to train her as a Jedi: Struggles but then succeeds in finally convincing Luke to train her only to scare him off halfway into the first lesson and piss him off further by going to see the mirror. Speaking of...
3) Tries to learn more about her parents and destiny: Regardless of what RoS does or not retcon re: her parentage (I've yet to see it) there is no way to not regard this as an abject failure. The mirror literally shows her nothing about her parents, and she fails (at least at the time) to even learn the lesson from the experience (that her lineage isn't what matters, what matters is who she is and decides to be). That, or maybe JJ decided that Kylo Ren was lying to her :rolleyes: but even then it means she fell for it, and it nearly breaks her.
4) Tries to turn Kylo Ren: Abject failure. At best she opens him up enough to the light side that he kills his master to free her. At worst he merely used her naivety as an opportunity to overthrow his master and gain control of the First Order himself. It's left deliberately vague how close he ever gets to actually turning or whether he ever did at all; but considering where he ends up I'd personally lean towards the latter.
5) Coolest Lightsaber Fight in the Series: You can fight me on this, but you'd be wrong. Anyway, what happens here? Oh yeah, she nearly gets killed until Kylo Ren intervenes. But please, do tell me more about how she never needs anybody's help to do anything.
6) Shoots down some TIE Fighters: Well I mean yeah, but who hasn't?
7) Lifts some rocks: Hey look, Rey finally does something right and helpful at the end of the movie! And it isn't tied to some massive destiny she's been chasing the entire movie, or destroying or redeeming some great evil. It's literally moving some rocks so a couple of dozen freedom-fighters can escape to fight another day. Almost like she has to learn that what isn't important is the size or scope of the role she is to play in the endless struggle, simply that she does what she can to play her part in the greater picture. Almost like this movie has themes or something.

Oh, and for your cherry-picked examples from the end of TFA, you, like most of Rey's critics, cheerfully ignore the examples in the text that don't conform to your very specific (and wrong narrative):
1) "but she just uses a jedi mind trick with no struggle or problem!" - First off, she fails the first time she tries it. Secondly, if Rey is said to have a single core competency, it is that she is a quick study. The relationship between Rey & Kylo in both movies is that of a reluctant teacher and even more reluctant student. She's learning from Kylo's attempted mind torture. The thought "hey maybe I can control this stormtrooper with my mind" doesn't just spontaneously spring forth fully-formed from James Bond's forehead. Kylo showed her how to do it by trying to do it to her (never mind that it's fairly well-established at this point that she's a total Jedi fangirl). Then she tries it and fails. So then she tries it again. It's almost like perseverance is one of her other strongest character traits.
2) "b-b-but she beat Kylo!" - Now this one is a doozy, simply because it is an argument made by people who have somehow missed the extreme, almost comical lengths the movie has gone through to demonstrate how just how hurt Kylo is before they even lock lightsabers. Dude took a direct hit from a bowcaster. Did you think that whole running gag about how ridiculously powerful that gun is was just for a cheap guffaw? Did you think he was just punching himself in his wound over and over again for fun? In crass RPG terms, he is taking some serious penalties to his attack rolls. I mean, never mind that he just killed his father, something we know he has been conflicted about the entire length of the movie. He's not exactly the most stable guy in the first place. And even after all that, the fight ends in a draw.
3) So, there's been much ballyho about the respective power levels of Kylo and Rey compared to past observed Jedi. To that I would say: did you see the prequels? But let's leave those in history where they belong for a moment. Are Rey and Kylo demonstrably, strangely powerful force wielders? Yes. In fact, their "raw strength" is commented on, in-text, by someone I would expect we could treat as an authority on the subject. It's almost as if the Force is... doing something. Like... ending a long nap. If only there were a word...

In any case, this has been long what is sure to be pointless exercise in fruitlessly debunking bad faith arguments.

I guess it does help to remind me how good these movies are. I mean, of course they aren't perfect, but TFA is solid and TLJ flirts with and occasionally reaches honest-to-goodness greatness, and it's because of how much time and energy they've dedicated to crafting good characters and, especially in the case of TLJ, following through on themes.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
We just finished our re-watch of the whole series.......and wow, the characters are stupid over and over again in the Last Jedi. I had forgotten how bad it was. Still better than the prequels, though possibly not better than Ep 3......Some fun moments in TLJ, but the stupid burns.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Lukes whiny annoying and impulsive for most of the first two movies. And gets his ass handed to him multiple times.

It's RotJ Luke people like. ANH it's Han people like.

Let's face it in a few years no one's going to care that much about the new character s and that's entirely bon the writer's. The actors themselves are better than the OT ones (Hamill wasn't great ANH let's face it).

Character development wasn't as good as the OT. There was no chemistry like Han plus Leia. Poe and Rey barely interacted.

On our re-watch, Luke was MUCH LESS whiny than we recalled, and pales compared to Anakin and his whinyness.
 


Vael

Hero
Of course you won't, because you can't. I didn't make one attack on Rey's character at all. I made no disparaging comments about her at all. Indeed, I attributed to her wisdom, power, cunning, martial prowess, technical competency, and heck even likability. She's the full package.

To sum up your 15 paragraphs ... Luke is on a Hero's journey, Rey isn't. Because Luke gets beat up by Tusken Raiders and a trash monster and whines about his lot in life, it's okay for him to kill a Death Star, but Rey flying the Millenium Falcon or defeating Kylo Ren isn't a worthy character arc because

Rey isn't even on a path. And since she hasn't struggled, when this story finishes, it won't have been a journey

is pretty darn dismissive. Just because you didn't use the words "Mary Sue", doesn't mean they aren't there.

And you're also wrong. Rey's story mirrors Kylo's story, they're both OT fans. Kylo starts the series wanting to be as powerful as Darth Vader, not recognizing his own power, he literally stops a blaster bolt in midair. Rey idolizes the old Rebellion heroes, but she's still waiting for her family, for belonging.

And what happens when Rey meets her heroes? Han, who ran away from Leia in an attempt to reclaim his old roguish lifestyle, and Luke, who ran away to wither and die? She sees the human frailty behind the legends and stories and realizes her own potential, while Kylo wants to burn the past and forget it.

In a way, Luke, Han, Kylo and Rey are all trapped by the past, and their reactions to it are their main character arcs in TFA and TLJ. Han and Rey both want to retreat to a time "before", Rey, the security of her family, Han, the life he had as a care-free scoundrel. Kylo wants to kill the past, Luke is wallowing in it.
 


Mallus

Legend
But Luke isn't marked by competence.
That's a very strange thing to say about a farm boy who survives the Death Star attack run - and delivers the fatal blow.

But Rey has vastly broader and deeper skills than Luke.
Arguable. I think what we've seen so far (pre-Rise) is Rey having an exceptionally strong connection to the Force.

Don't mean to be terse, but on my way out of the office...
 

Hussar

Legend
Umm, didn't Anakin, as a child, enter and win a brutal death race that no human had ever managed to win before, as well as pilot a star fighter? So, aren't arguments that those with strong connections to the Force are somehow unmarked by competence kinda, well, way off base?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Umm, didn't Anakin, as a child, enter and win a brutal death race that no human had ever managed to win before, as well as pilot a star fighter? So, aren't arguments that those with strong connections to the Force are somehow unmarked by competence kinda, well, way off base?

It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.
He wasn't busting out force powers either.
 

Sadras

Hero
It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.He wasn't busting out force powers either.

No doubt the TPM was an entire drain full of crap, but I believe the point Hussar is making is that force-able persons have an edge, whether it be in intuition, in their reflexes or general skill, and it has nothing to do with active force-usage like telekinesis, electrical powers...etc. Imagine it in terms of passive power.
 

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