Order your Star Wars films

Hussar

Legend
It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.
He wasn't busting out force powers either.

Regard it as bad all you like, but, it's still canon. You cannot bitch on one hand that Rey is not following canon and then ignore the actual canon of the story. If the Force can allow a child to defeat highly trained pilots and racers, then, well, fighting a heavily wounded Kylo Ren to a draw doesn't seem like a stretch, does it?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Current ordering:

IV, V, VI, R1, IX, VII, VIII, S, III, I, II

VII and IX might swap places, as they're very close, but I can't tell this soon after IX.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Regard it as bad all you like, but, it's still canon. You cannot bitch on one hand that Rey is not following canon and then ignore the actual canon of the story. If the Force can allow a child to defeat highly trained pilots and racers, then, well, fighting a heavily wounded Kylo Ren to a draw doesn't seem like a stretch, does it?

It's not that she was busting out force powers untrained. I'm not claiming it's not canon it's poor storytelling contradicting the training in the prequels.

It's harder to connect with her as a character because she's so good. There's no drama and it's entirely predictable.

Also same movies that whole Jedi/With training thing. Needs to be internally consistent.
Also Anakin is the chosen one;)
 

Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
Revised list, post episode IX-
Edit: Actually, I try to add a little more granularity here:

Tier 1a (Cream of the Crop) - Empire Strikes Back, The Last Jedi
Tier 1b (Objectively Not As Good As 1a But My Inner Child Still Loves The Most) - Return of the Jedi
Tier 2a (Still Very, Very Good) - A New Hope
Tier 2b (Solid, Fun Star Wars Flicks) - The Force Awakens, Rise of Skywalker

From here is a substantial gap, then each movie gets its own tier:
Tier 3 (Fine, Just Fine, Really)- Solo
Tier 4 (First 50% Garbage, Last 50% WOW, so solidly in the middle I guess) - Rogue One
Tier 5 (At Least Mostly Works On Its Own Terms: "You Know, For Kids!") - The Phantom Menace
Tier 6 (Way Worse Than You Remember It Being) - Revenge of the Sith
Tier 7 (Trash Compacter) - Attack of the Clones
 


Zaukrie

New Publisher
Having just re-watched Last Jedi, and hating the stupidity of nearly every character, I am amused by how much people like that movie. It had great moments for sure, but the stupid burned my brain......and no, I'm not trying to convince anyone they are wrong, it's just one person's opinion.....
 


Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I love the premise of TLJ and wish they'd taken it further. It reminded me of "33 Minutes" (or whatever the BSG opener was). A relentless pursuit for the whole movie; just one chase lasting a few hours or days.Staying with the chase, and the drama of that as the rebels got slowly picked off. No Canto Blight, etc. More Duel. As the middle film in the trilogy being just that chase would have been an awesome bit of drama. Dark, lots of character work, a really simple premise/plot.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
So, I will take a stab at this. Let me first start by saying that TLJ isn't perfect- no movie is. And when people talk about "the stupid," they aren't entirely wrong. A major requirement of any movie (or, for that matter, fiction) is the suspension of disbelief. I would say that this is even more important in fantasy/scifi, because if it is lost, you go from "Cool/Awesome" to "Stupid/Ridiculous" really quick.

This, however, applies to any movie- not just TLJ, but ESB, or ANH ... that's why, for example, people have issues about "nitpicking" things in TLJ when the same issues aren't raised for the earlier movies (a common explanation for that, in my opinion, is that many people who complain about TLJ watched the earlier movies when they were younger ....)

But moving on from that particular issue, why do some people (such as me) like TLJ so very much? Well, it's for precisely the same reason that some people don't like it so much. Once you move beyond the things that people can agree on (it is well-directed and the cinematography is gorgeous), the very purpose of TLJ can be polarizing in some ways- it is, for all practical purposes, the heir of ESB. Because it interrogates what it means to be a Star Wars fan, what it means to love these movies, and allowed for new possibilities ... not by slavishly recreating a formula, but by purposefully breaking with it.

To use one of so very many examples, do you know what was shocking in ESB? That Luke was the son of Vader. It is a terrible cliche now, but at the time? WOAH! So how do you shock audiences now? By having the protagonist ... not be related to the big bad.* I know, shocker! But that was a bold choice- in just the same way that Kasdan boldly made choices for ESB.

And that's why people like me love that film. Because, for one film, it looked like Star Wars was opening up to new possibilities.



*Sigh. Oh well.
None of that addresses the stupid by otherwise smart characters and script.

if you can destroy ships by flying thru them at light speed, that's all anyone would do. And all that technology, and they can't fly remotely? We can fly planes remotely now.... You are a great leader/general, and you tell no one your plan? What if you die? And all of that is in the last few minutes ....

I loved Luke as an image. Great Jedi trick. I loved that in that movie it is implied she is no one, and we don't learn about Snoke. But again, none of that is about the stupid. And, I agree with Luke, the story of force users is that their hubris is their downfall.
 







Celebrim

Legend
None of that addresses the stupid by otherwise smart characters and script.

Agreed. Or all the unnecessary script bloat that surrounds all that stupid.

A lot of people who defend TLJ seem to think that the main problem the critics have with the movie is conceptual, and they spend a lot of time defending the concepts. And, sure, in a different movie those concepts could have made for a great movie. This wasn't that movie.

As just one of many examples, there is nothing wrong per se with Luke being a failure as a Jedi Master. In a lot of early post RotJ fan fiction, Luke turns to the Dark Side because a lot of fans thought that Luke's choices would haunt him - "once you start down the Dark Side...". The problem isn't with seeing Luke as a failure, it's with seeing him as a failure based off of such a thin, vague and unimaginative backstory.

The problem with both TFA and TLJ is the same - execution. They are just both dumb. They are dumb and feature dumb characters even by the standards that would hold up at an average RPG table where PCs are infamous for their stupidity. When you have characters repeatedly this stupid as protagonists, it's hard to root for them. This is stupidity that borders on and often becomes immorality. And likewise, when the antagonists are relentlessly stupid, then it's hard to feel any sense of drama. As just one of dozens of examples, imagine Darth Vader in the role of General Hux for the first 5 minutes of TLJ. You would consider that a parody, and you'd be right.

TPM was haunted by a relentlessly stupid and useless character in the form of Jar Jar Binks. But the new trilogy gives every character the Jar Jar Binks treatment.

And other problem, and I guess this is as close as you can get to a real conceptual problem the movies have, is that they are obviously completely unplanned and without a core story. They are obviously making it all up as they go with no overarching goals other than to make 3 movies and make some money. A lot of fans of TFA blame the director of TLJ for messing everything up, but the truth is that there was nothing to mess up in the first place. If there had have been, then there would have been some story guidance as to what plot points to hit and secrets to reveal and what the twists were supposed to be. There were not.

You can retroactively sort of make a core idea out of them if you squint, but the text of the script itself won't support that idea. Supporting some cherry picked idea about what the movies are actually about or what theme that they supposedly have invariably involves fan speculation and referencing things that are not only not in the script but in some fanon backstory, but contrary to the actual script. All of this is just rationalizing away what is obviously true, that there is no overarching theme, no grand story arc, and no journey each character is going to go through because they never thought that far ahead.

Why for example does Poe have so little relationship to Rey? Well, because in early versions of the script he died when his Tie Fighter hit the sand, and he was written back in at a late point in production. And this lack of planning and vision is the real reason for almost everything, including all the stupid.

if you can destroy ships by flying thru them at light speed, that's all anyone would do. And all that technology, and they can't fly remotely? We can fly planes remotely now....

Defenders of TLJ seem to think problems like this are just nitpicking, but the implications of this thoughtless bit of Deus Ex Machina where you invent a solution to the dead end that you've written your characters into, utterly overturns all of Star Wars star ship combat. Star Wars star ship combat deliberately references World War II air combat in almost every respect to create a visually compelling and mythic form of story telling. None of it makes sense if you think about it too hard, but it is internally consistent provided you don't introduce any obvious technical changes to the conceits.

The implications of the light speed ram doing such tremendous damage to the enemy fleet are not less than:

a) You have just made all capital ships obsolete except possibly the space equivalent of submarines and guided missile cruisers.
b) You have not only made Death Stars obsolete, but you've actually made obsolete any need for Death Stars.
c) This isn't new technology. So for the last 1000 years or so, all factions on all sides of all wars have just been doing it wrong.

With star fighter scale missiles that can perform light speed rams you can destroy anything up to the scale of planets from virtually anywhere in the galaxy simply by skip jumping. There would have been no need to attack Star Destroyers with X-Wings. You could have fired missiles from bases in the outer rim, light jumped them into Imperial Systems, and then light speed rammed whatever you found. One missile would suffice per Imperial Cruiser/Carrier.

Any defense of, "You aren't supposed to think so hard about it." is ridiculous. It's Star Wars. It's been obsessively thought about for decades. RPGs, video games, and novels have been written assuming the conceits of Star Wars naval combat as presented for decades. Minor characters that weren't named in the movies got their own short stories, and characters with no more than a few minutes of screen time got whole novelized series devoted to them. To break one of the rules of Star Wars combat that egregiously breaks the entire structure of the setting. Star Wars at this point is to big to sacrifice to one writers failure to think through the implications of how they write themselves out of a trap that resulted from their own poor planning.

And what's bad is how often they pull these technobabble answers out. Because let's not forget, this wasn't even the first movie where they broke the rules to deus ex machina themselves out of a writing trap. TFA saw them pull off a lightspeed jump into the atmosphere of a shielded planet. Rumor has it that the next movie has them pulling off a series of superfast precision lightspeed jumps as easily as "dusting crops".

You are a great leader/general, and you tell no one your plan?

COBRA is a better run and led military than The Resistance in TLJ.
 
Last edited:

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Agreed. Or all the unnecessary script bloat that surrounds all that stupid.

edited...



COBRA is a better run and led military than The Resistance in TLJ.

I'm not quite as distasteful of the movie as your, I just don't like it as much as I fell I should, given the parts I really liked. Again, not trying to change minds here....
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'm not quite as distasteful of the movie as your, I just don't like it as much as I fell I should, given the parts I really liked. Again, not trying to change minds here....

I'm a notoriously harsh critic. I get that most people don't like it as much as I dislike it. You don't have to.
 



Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top