(OT) Mugging/Revenge/Martial Arts

[Paladin]

On the subject of weapons, my limited experience tells me that weapons often escalate violence - at least as often as they defuse it.

Not really, in my relatively vast experience a weapon produced defensively almost always causes a scumbag to back away and run, or stay there with their hands up. I've apprehended two criminals by simply producing a weapon and holding them for the police. The police said, "Thanks, but next time shoot him." I'm not kidding - I have witnesses.

Also, carrying weapons can promote an inflated sense of security and over confidence.

It depends on the individual, but I haven't really seen that in the hundreds of people I've taught. Carrying weapons grants you a sense of security and confidence you certainly will never have if you're unarmed and essentially defenseless. To put this in perspective: if YOU are attacked by five people (which we've seen has happened here) would you rather be able to (a) produce a weapon and kill/wound your attackers -or- (b) get your butt kicked?

Having a knife opens your up to the possibility that it can be taken off you and used against you. Owning a firearm massively increases your chance of being shot. Again, it Barsoomcore who highlighted the important point - making people afraid makes them unpredictable and much more likely to resort to violence.

In the hands of someone untrained, these statements have validity. However, if someone is trained in knife fighting and firearms retention techniques - you aren't getting the weapon away. Trust me. I carry two guns and two knives on me at all times (in the great state of Texas we have Concealed Handgun Licenses, which I have) as well as pepper spray and 20 years of martial arts experience. If someone attacks me, they're going to have a very, very bad day. Note that any attacker is "unpredictable," unless you've been training with them for years.

Here's a good example of why being armed is good: I'm currently sitting by my window watching for my neighbor's crazy stalker to show up and bother her. He's already driven by her house at least four times in the past 24 hours. She is a defenseless single mother of four. I just changed her locks for her yesterday as it is believed he has a key to her house. No amount of good thoughts or talking "sense" into said scumbag has worked. The police have already told him that if he shows up again, "He'd be considered trespassing and it would be reasonable to assume he was there to commit a crime." They then reminded him that in Texas, you can shoot people for that, especially at night. *Hint-hint* He hasn't gotten the hint. She stands no chance against this guy, neither do her children. Being armed is good.

Anyway, that's the advice I've got. You may, possibly, reach a stage where you are a skilled enough fighter to beat five opponents. The vast majority of martial artists, boxers, street-fighters, bar brawlers etc never reach this level of ability and it is a genuinely unrealistic ambition. You can however train to survive.

It depends if you're talking traditional martial arts or real self-defense. Note that with real self-defense, five opponents can be neutralized quite quickly. Especially in firearms-friendly areas. The most I've trained to fight at once has been 10. The most I've actually squared off against, but didn't engage in melee was about 15. My point is, if you're armed the numbers against you don't matter; your size doesn't matter; your sex doesn't matter; your age doesn't matter. All that matters is you have a CHANCE to survive. Unarmed, you're either screwed or lucky. None of us here are halflings, so don't count on luck.

 

[DDK]

But certainly, if you consider it ridiculous, you won't have much luck. And I do agree that contacting the police is an important thing to do, even if you are leaving. The police can only do their job if we make it possible.

Yeah, definitely. Always report this stuff. Letting little punks like that get off scott-free is what gives them such a free-reign in the first place. I'm not saying victims are to blame, but the fact is, is that most people don't report stuff, so they get away with it simply due to our own ambivalence.

And regardless, if you get a half-decent cop listening to you, then he'll know his beat and may even know who did it. It's a case of the usual suspects. And even if they've never done anything, at least a profile can be started.

I hate how little $h!7$ like this get away with terrorising people. I often wish I could be a cop... but even I'm not dumb enough to put a gun in my hands

 

[DDK]

Er, carrying a knife may not be legal where you live. If you don't know how to use a knife, you have a problem. And lying to a police officer ("He said he was going to kill me!") can get you in a great deal of trouble--especially if there are witnesses.

One of the things I love about Australia is the fact that ones weaponry options are so very limited. I'm not saying you can't get a gun or carry a knife, but the simple fact is, is that due to our draconian laws about concealed weaponry (and in Victoria where I live, this has just gotten even more strict) and guns, the liklihood of facing someone with either is MUCH reduced.

My attitude, ie. kick the crap out of any punk who dares threaten you, to be honest, would probably get me killed in America. Only takes a finger to pull a trigger.

And I agree that carrying weaponry only makes things worse, although having said that, if given the choice, I'd take a weapon above none in a hostile situation any day. But bringing a weapon, especially if untrained, really doesn't help matters. In fact, the last guy who pulled a knife on me (about three months ago), got a broken nose BECAUSE he pulled the knife... it just pissed me off Although, having said that, I had a coffee mug in my hand at the time. Held by the handle, it made for a pretty nifty, impromptu ceramic knuckle

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Not really, in my relatively vast experience a weapon produced defensively almost always causes a scumbag to back away and run, or stay there with their hands up. I've apprehended two criminals by simply producing a weapon and holding them for the police. The police said, "Thanks, but next time shoot him." I'm not kidding - I have witnesses.

It depends on the individual, but I haven't really seen that in the hundreds of people I've taught. Carrying weapons grants you a sense of security and confidence you certainly will never have if you're unarmed and essentially defenseless. To put this in perspective: if YOU are attacked by five people (which we've seen has happened here) would you rather be able to (a) produce a weapon and kill/wound your attackers -or- (b) get your butt kicked?

In the hands of someone untrained, these statements have validity. However, if someone is trained in knife fighting and firearms retention techniques - you aren't getting the weapon away. Trust me. I carry two guns and two knives on me at all times (in the great state of Texas we have Concealed Handgun Licenses, which I have) as well as pepper spray and 20 years of martial arts experience. If someone attacks me, they're going to have a very, very bad day. Note that any attacker is "unpredictable," unless you've been training with them for years.

Here's a good example of why being armed is good: I'm currently sitting by my window watching for my neighbor's crazy stalker to show up and bother her. He's already driven by her house at least four times in the past 24 hours. She is a defenseless single mother of four. I just changed her locks for her yesterday as it is believed he has a key to her house. No amount of good thoughts or talking "sense" into said scumbag has worked. The police have already told him that if he shows up again, "He'd be considered trespassing and it would be reasonable to assume he was there to commit a crime." They then reminded him that in Texas, you can shoot people for that, especially at night. *Hint-hint* He hasn't gotten the hint. She stands no chance against this guy, neither do her children. Being armed is good.

It depends if you're talking traditional martial arts or real self-defense. Note that with real self-defense, five opponents can be neutralized quite quickly. Especially in firearms-friendly areas. The most I've trained to fight at once has been 10. The most I've actually squared off against, but didn't engage in melee was about 15. My point is, if you're armed the numbers against you don't matter; your size doesn't matter; your sex doesn't matter; your age doesn't matter. All that matters is you have a CHANCE to survive. Unarmed, you're either screwed or lucky. None of us here are halflings, so don't count on luck.

OK, I should have been more specific. I was assuming that the original poster did not live in a part of the world where concealed firearms are legal. I felt my assumption was fair. By armed, I meant hand-to-hand combat weapons.

When it comes to firearms I'm completely in the theoretical - I've fired small calibre pistols at a gun range and that's it for first hand experience.

I assume that when you refer to "real self defense" and neutralising five opponents you are referring to firearms involved combat. I have a degree of melee weapons knowledge and I wouldn't give myself more than fifty-fifty odds against five opponents, even armed.

 

[zdanboy]

Hello!!!

I've been having the same problem as you.......I have recently taken up MA training and.......the schools that I have been to are centered more on teaching kata and forms, over the practical application of the techniques (sparring). Of course it depends on the teacher and all, but........in general that is the way things go.....

Of course I am speaking about traditional martial arts (Kung fu, Karate, Taekwondo).....

What I do suggest, though....go the Filipino martial arts route. Filipino martial arts (FMA) put stress on weapon techniques (2 most popular weapons tought are: stick and knife), while having enough empty hand training and even grappling training to do well in those areas too......

The most important thing though (IMHO) is learning to suppress your fear to defend yourself......I know it may sound stupid, but.....I know many experienced FMA praticioners who are too afraid to use the stick/knife in a combat situation.....

And last, but not least: A stick made of rattan is a perfectly legal thing almost anywhere...!!!

 

[Snoweel]

Re: Is this a troll? Eh, whatever, like I care...

Some good advice here, but I never thought I'd see this:

Forget about martial arts. They're great for exercise and hand-eye coordination which is great for putting the smack-down on little punks, but ultimately, they're a waste of time for street defense.

You see... the problem with all hand-to-hand, non-weapon, martial arts, is that you get trained in a sterile environment. You get trained to go through the motions with partners who are willing participants. On the street, it's SO different, that most of that knowledge goes the way of the dodo, even if you manage to keep your cool and remember half of it.

Now... this isn't going to sound sophisticated or particularly learned, but the best option is to simply beat the crap out of your opponent. Forget about method, go for madness. Swing and keep swinging, kick and keep kicking, grab and tear and punch and simply don't stop till the other guy isn't resisting and then move on to the next. Be vicious, be merciless, be entirely ready to kill whoever or whatever resists you.

You see... most fights aren't about skill, they're about attitude and the simple fact of who is willing to go the furthest. Most people aren't willing to kill or die in a fight, so if you are, you've pretty much already won.

I've been in knife fights and street fights so I'm saying this from experience. I've done several martial arts and used to train myself because I couldn't afford lessons. If it wasn't for a lack of money and a nervous breakdown, I would've competed in kata competition and full-contact, freestyle karate (albeit, 8 years ago and I haven't done much since).

And I can tell you right now, that knowing how to snap someones arm in half is neat, but it means jack in a stand-up fight. What means something is ACTUALLY breaking the guys arm and if you can do it, kudos to you, but don't count on it and don't think, "Ok, now I'm going to try and break his arm," simply do whatever the hell you can whenever the hell you can and be fully willing to kill or die to win.

It's all about winning, you see.

And I'm not surprised it comes from an Aussie.

The best advice my father ever gave me was this:

Snoweel's old man said

When you get scared, and you will, just remember that all the other guy(s) are scared too.

And if they're not, they will be when you start swinging.

Of course, my dad also took me to the local Police Boys' Club at the age of 11. I believe his exact words were "With a mouth like yours, you'd better learn to put 'em up."

Besides building my confidence massively, the only practical thing boxing has taught me is how to keep at bay, a guy who wants to bash me and whom I really don't want to fight.

Because when it comes time to actually fight, the only thing that matters is, as Fourecks said, who wants it more.

Of course, if I was attacked by 5 guys, one with a knife, my first option would be to leg it. Get out of there.

I've been threatened by a knife-wielder before, and I (figuratively, not literally) wet myself. Luckily for me it was at a party where I knew people who knew him, so at least he didn't have the protection of anonymity.

Anyway, he only wanted to scare me - to make me look bad in front of everybody, since he was a bit socially disfunctional, and I was the life of the party on this particular occaision.

As it happened, I couldn't escape or back up; I was against the wall, so I tried to look calm, to which he slowly inched the knife toward my face (he was saying something at the time, but I couldn't hear anything other than my heart, which was in my throat). When it got close enough that I was about to burst into tears, I instinctively grabbed his knife-hand, which could've gone horribly wrong, and my buddies instantly punched the c_nt out of him.

I'd say that he ultimately made both of us look bad.

Anyway, point is, unless you've done some serious unarmed training against a knife-wielding opponent, don't try to punch on with a knife-guy. Run. And if he catches you, give him your wallet.

But if you really wanna duke it out, just throw punches and keep on throwing. Kick, gouge, bite. Go the squirrel grip. Whatever.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight (or how many years that dog has been learning Kung Fu) - it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Of course, a good big man will beat a good little man any day of the week (and twice on Sundays).

But I find that I feel a lot better about myself if I've had a go and lost than if I've run away.

Then again, I live in Oz - we're a lot less likely to kill each other down here. If I lived in the States, I'd assume everyone had a knife or a gun, and so I'd carry one too.

 

[Carnifex]

I've done some small amount of martial arts and I had the advantage of, while I never reached any lofty heights of action-movie style ninjing I had a teacher who interspersed his teaching with lots of advice on how to use the stuff in the real world. It was shotokan karate, but at the end of each session he'd teach us, for instance, how to bar fight using the block's we'd learned that day as actual offensive moves instead to grab an opponents hair/face/facial piercings and hit the bar with them. Very useful stuff.

One of his best pieces of advice; if you end up in an aggressive situation with someone twice your size, just don't pick a fight. It's not worth it anyway, and your martial arts training probably wont help you much.

 

[mythago]

My attitude, ie. kick the crap out of any punk who dares threaten you, to be honest, would probably get me killed in America. Only takes a finger to pull a trigger.

Despite what the rest of the world believes, we Americans don't all go around packing heat all the time.

Serpenteye, this may have gotten buried before, so please let me reiterate: see if there is a crime victim's assistance group (the police shoudl be able to refer you), either in your former city or current one. Sometimes there are funds to help crime victims--say, to pay for you getting a new pair of glasses.

 

[Serpenteye]

Sometimes there are funds to help crime victims--say, to pay for you getting a new pair of glasses.

Hmm, perhaps that's worth looking into. Thanks.

 

[takyris]

Allow me to politely play Devil's Advocate here. Anyone who says that martial arts won't help you on the street falls into one of three categories:

1) Non-martial artist.
2) Former martial artist from lousy school.
3) Lazy former martial artist from good school who didn't bother to do those "silly" katas and forms enough times to get muscle memory working.

Kendo might not help you a ton on the street. Judo might only help you a bit. They're still better than nothing, but in general, anything ending in "-do" is the sport version of something that used to end in "jitsu", which was meant to be a practical martial art. (Kenjitsu uses moves that are illegal in Kendo because they can't be done safely in a sparring environment, and Judo doesn't make use of all the nasty Jujitsu holds.)

IF you go to a school with an emphasis on practical self-defense, training diligently will help you. Practical self-defnese includes not being afraid to do things that make people go "Eww", like raking across the eyes or grabbing the groin or putting your thumb into their throat.

And really, it's a matter of waiting. In most schools, folks, they don't teach you the deadly stuff until:
a) they've given you a firm foundation in knowing how to step, how to block, and how to generally move intelligently -- ie, until they've taught you the alphabet that allows you to learn the martial arts language
b) they've determined that you aren't a jerk. Anyone who claims to have taken a martial art but found it useless on the street either found themselves a lousy school, of which there are many -- or else they failed either a) or b), above.

Fourecks: Madness and wild abandon will work extremely well against someone with no training. In fact, most early training at my school consists of getting people to do SOMETHING when attacked -- teaching them to overcome the rabbitlike "freeze" response some people seem to have. So what you're saying is definitely true. If you can add a martial art to it, so much the better.

Paladin: Sounds like you've seen lousy schools. Traditional does not mean Flashy, and it does not mean Pointless. I've seen schools that teach Pointless movements and Flashy movements. Some of them billed themselves as traditional, while others claimed to be the fusion of many new arts, usually mouthing the three lines they actually understood from Bruce Lee's book.

And I consider it sad that you have never found practical combat application in katas. Perhaps no one ever told you that you aren't supposed to, you know, DO the kata when attacked? You're actually just supposed to do individual moves from the kata. The kata is a training device. It CAN have a downside, in that it can grow too stagnant -- it's good to have training in how to spontaneously alter techniques when the attacker doesn't respond the way you'd planned -- but on the whole, it's usually considered better to have the student practice self-defense techniques than not. If you're still practicing self-defense techniques but aren't doing katas, then all you've done is re-invent the wheel -- minus the transitional movements between individual techniques, most of which are designed to teach you how to move from one stance to another in a protected fashion.

Or, you know, you've seen lousy schools. One of the two.

-Tacky

EDIT: While getting all vituperative, I forgot to actually answer the question -- although everyone else's answers were pretty good. Basically, find an art with an emphasis on the practical, practice it a bunch, and commit to taking time to make it useful. You won't be terribly effective terribly quickly, but you WILL develop better confidence, just from knowing how to move. More often than not, confidence, along with a better awareness of your surroundings, will get you out of more fights than an inverted spear-hand to the throat will.