Fourecks said:
I've done a little bit of judo, a fair bit of karate, a little bit of ninjutsu... (cut)
Ninjitsu's basically a joke everywhere now, so you're not alone in that. If you can find a REAL practitioner of the art, it's pretty practical and non-flashy and generally cool, but like all things that were popular, it resulted in a lot of wannabes and not enough validation control. The school's that MIGHT not suck usually call themselves either Bujinkan or Hoshinjitsu now and refer to themselves as "the fighting style of the ninja", having dropped ninjitsu because of the connotations you suggest.
I take exception to what you just said and, quite frankly, think anyone who would say that, has never been in a stand-up fight where their life depended on the outcome.
I appreciate the fact that you take exception to it -- it means you're thinking about it. Personally, I took exception to the fact that you made a blanket assumption about all martial arts, when in fact your experience came from having a LITTLE of a bunch of martial arts. Since this is a roleplaying board, the closest analogy that I can make is to suggest that this is not unlike taking one level apiece of bard, cleric, druid, and wizard, and then complaining that spells aren't very effective. Depth is a lot more important than breadth.
You'll also note that I agreed with you on some points -- about how important the right mindset is, and how the first belt at my school is more or less "teaching the newbies to do SOMETHING when they're attacked, even if it's not a formal technique". Maybe I should state that more explicitly. You're bang-on correct there. We do drills where we're told flat-out, "Person A, attack Person B however you want. Person B, do something. If it's a technique, great. If you adapt a technique for a new purpose, great. If you just make something up, great. But MOVE." So what you're suggesting is vital, and it's a shame if the schools you went to didn't teach that.
Like I said, it doesn't hurt to know martial arts, especially in terms of hand-eye (ever tried to hit a moving target with you fist that don't wanna get hit?), but relying on it without having YEARS of EXTENSIVE training is simply stupid.
I think we can agree on that. I don't recall saying that six months of it will make you a death machine. Six months of Kenpo made me capable of saying, "I know a really cool move! Here, grab my wrist... No, with the OTHER hand... no, not like that. Dang it, you're not attacking me right!"
So yes, years of experience. I wasn't arguing that it was easy -- just that eventually, you did get benefits.
Till that muscle memory kicks in, ie. it becomes wrote, it's more of a hindrance than a help. And even then, only about 5% of the moves are ever going to be of any practical use.
Depends on what you mean by "moves". If I recall, not counting individual kicks or blocks and only counting actual techniques (which, in my school, are a sequence of movements, like "block, step in, elbow, elbow, half-fist to the throat"), we've got 125 or so techniques up to black belt. There are certainly some that I wouldn't use on the street, either because of my body type or because they don't jive with my personal style.
There are also a whole BUNCH of techniques that I initially THOUGHT I would never use or like because they didn't immediately feel great to me, but after practicing a bunch of times, I realized that the reason they didn't feel great is because they were teaching me a new way to move. As a result, I like a bunch of those moves a whole lot more, and would definitely use them on the street. My personal style has adapted to include them, and is stronger for having done so.
...Good description of stance stuff snipped...
Now, go (in the case of Serpenteye, go to a place similar to where you were attacked) to a place where you think it might be possible for you to get mugged (obviously during the day and in as safe a manner as possible and with friends, etc... I hope people aren't stupid enough to... oh wait, yes they are, nevermind). Now try all the above. Try it in another 9 places.
I bet you that 9 out of those 10 places, you couldn't do half the moves.
Your school never did outdoor workouts, showing how the in-school moves are an ideal to strive for, but how in real life, your clothing or the ground you're on is going to make you adapt your stance? Heck, we practice on gravel, cement, grass (and grass is nice, except for cleaning your gi afterward), and are encouraged to practice in snow and on ice if we go someplace cold (not a ton of snow near my school). We also have "street clothes" workouts designed to help us learn the real-world limitations of clothing.
But for your average Joe, suddenly they're in a situation where they think they know what they're doing and yet the fundamental basics of what they've learned can't be done, and so the system breaks down under real world conditions which has a cascading effect through the rest of the system.
I don't entirely follow your logic here. I THINK you're saying that because one part of the training doesn't work, the person will freeze up. That's certainly possible for a beginner, yes, or for someone whose school doesn't do enough real-world application stuff.
On the other hand, as soon as I started taking Kenpo, the bullies stopped picking on me. I didn't face them down in a vicious throwdown -- I just gained some confidence. Heck, my grandmother apparently told my mother that I appeared to grow three inches taller as soon as I started taking the art, just because I wasn't walking in a pathetic little slouch anymore. People have mentioned the importance of not being a victim on this thread. Even if it doesn't end up coming to blows, having the confidence of knowing that you can throw a punch can make that fight never happen.
Mind you, this assumes you're not an idiot, that you're confident but not arrogant, that you're not LOOKING for a fight.
As for the physical stuff, it works if you put in the effort. And yeah, it's definitely work, but it does pay off. It's never going to look as pretty on the street as it does in the school, but that doesn't mean that practicing it sloppy is the best thing to do. In any good martial art, it's all pretty like that for a reason -- usually because it's been determined that doing the move in that pretty way is the best way to make the attack with the most force, the least effort, and the most safety (ie, not opening yourself to attack while doing so). On the street, it might not matter in one particular case if your other hand wasn't guarding correctly, because you're fighting some pinhead who just wanted your wallet. On the other hand, that pinhead might throw a wild punch that hits you because your guard wasn't pretty, like it was in the school. Doing the punch, however, you do it, is better than NOT doing the punch, but in the long-term, getting it clean, even on the street, will help.
I apologize for offending you, Fourecks, but frankly, I don't feel that my tone was any different from your tone, and your tone sure as heck offended me, so I'd say we're even. You're welcome to your opinions, and I'm happy to discuss things with you, but if you say, "I know for a fact that martial arts is useless on the street," I'm going to say, "I know for a fact that you're full of it." It doesn't make you a bad person, but you're talking about something that, by your own admission, you don't understand. After all, you did say, "a little of this, a little of that", essentially, which means you never got to the really cool parts of any one style.
Or perhaps we're just the voices from opposite ends of the spectrum. You DID say that martial arts MAY eventually help someone if they train for YEARS and YEARS. As someone who HAS trained for years and years, I can agree with you on that. I just don't think it takes as long as you're saying, provided you find a good school and a good teacher.
-Tacky
) and last but not least, real fights where the other guy/s wanted me dead.
