D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Thanee]

What don't you like about it?

It's simple but detailed, fast and has an extremely elegant advancement and stat system.

I'm not familiar with the older versions, but the current edition is my game of choice.

Admittedly, I do not know which version of it I know...

It's the [xd6 (take highest roll)]+y where x is your skill level and y your attribute level.

That's a really bad system, because of the probability spreads. Attribute level is far too important (if you have a high attribute all you need is a very small skill level, like 2, and you are immediately extremely good in every skill based on that attribute / on the flip side, if you have a low attribute level, like -1, then you will suck at every skill based on it, regardless of how many levels you have... even 10d6-1 is worse than 2d6+2 usually) and skill level is next to pointless after 3, while the step from 1 to 2 is like going from absolute beginner (completely random results) to professional in one go. 2 to 3 is already a far smaller step (yet more expensive) and everything thereafter is barely worth the cost for the off-chance to roll multiple 6's (IIRC additional 6's rolled add +1 to the result each). Might be, that the d6 is simply too small for that, but that system simply doesn't work well in my experience.

I agree, that the general idea is good, but the execution is not.

A similar system (roll x dice take highest result) is used in Deadlands (the original non-d20ified version), but it's done a lot better there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

A perfect example of d20's flexability is Mutants and Masterminds.

Agreed, this is the only way to go, drop 90% of what is d20 and basically make a completely new system.

That's only hardly d20 anymore, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Henry]

OK, let's take a look at it.

First of all, Shadowrun has a completely different concept of "game balance". At character creation, you split your priorities five ways between Attributes (raw talent), Skills, Resources (equipment, money, cyberware), Race, and Magical Abilities (if any).

In d20, the prime factor of game balance is the "character level". And this is where things start to get problematic. Race is easy to balance with effective character level, but how do you model an inexperienced character with lots of raw talent (=high attributes) verus an older character whose body has been ravaged by age or substance abuse (=low attributes), but lots of experience (=high skills)?

In a conversion I worked on, I assigned each new character six "levels" - these levels could be split up between Attributes, Skills, Resources, Race, and Magic. You could put more than three levels into an area, but it netted you nothing. It takes three levels to be a full mage, two levels to be an aspected mage or adept, and 1 or 0 get you nothing. Three levels got you the highest point-buy to make your attributes; three levels gave you the highest starting skill points; three levels got you a million Nuyen; two levels got you the Elf or Troll race, one level got you Dwarf or Ork, and zero got you human.

Every level you gained after that gave you character points you could apply to skills, or attributes, etc.

All combat skills (unarmed, cyber-implant, guns, heavy weapons, etc.) started at -3 to hit. Putting in skill points made you better at it (max ranks = lvl + 3 for all skills).

Action Dice (a la Spycraft) work quite well to model the boost a Karma Pool gives 'runners, especially since they refresh every game, or scene, at the GM's discretion.

Magic in SR has quite a few differences from "standard" d20 as well. Standard d20 magic is rather mechanical - you expend your spell slot/energy point/whatever, and then the spell works. In Shadowrun, casting spells is always risky, the actual results of the casting are highly variable, and there are few spells that are permanent - and spells that are supposed last for a certain amount of time will need to be concentrated on constantly. Trying to capture all this with d20 would again require a major re-work of the d20 rules.

The Black Company Campaign Setting as well as Star Wars have magic systems that can model similar systems remarkably well. Black Company, in particular, I'm getting enamored with lately, but for a Shadowrun setting you just have Conjuration and Sorcery, which work well for such a system.

In summary, I repeat my position: Yes it is possible to do Shadowrun in d20. But to capture the mood of Shadowrun properly, you would have to create so many new rules that it would be like effectively learning a new system, negating the advantage of using d20 in the first place.

For me personally, nothing will negate the ease of having one die + mods over having a dozen dice to roll, explode, re-roll, count, and compare each round. Others' mileage will vary.

 

[Thanee]

Now that this has been said, I still don't think that SR4 should be d20. But at the same time, I don't see how come people keep insisting that elements of SR can't be handled with d20.

Well, I don't think it's impossible to do it (and at least the last posts from others here say the same).

I do think, that it is impossible without an extraordinary amount of rewriting, tho.
And even then it would not be "better" than what we already have. Pointless, as others have said.

Also, ripping the background from the system and putting in the d20 mechanics and a new system based around that would probably result in a rather sterile game. The SR mechanics are (almost ) as much part of the game as the background. It's one big whole, not two seperate parts, but a d20ified version would just be two different parts glued together. At least I would see it like that.

It's similar to a game like Deadlands d20. There was really absolutely no point in doing Deadlands d20 (except hoping for money from the d20 crowd, that is - a good enough reason, of course ).



Something else... I keep reading about the flexibility of the d20 system.

What is "the d20 system" anyways?

If d20 is nothing but roll d20 add modifier beat DC, then d20 isn't even a system. It's just a dice roll concept.

If you (not you specifically ) want to talk about flexibility than you need a complete set of rules which immediately can be used with only minor changes if anything (i.e. something like HERO or GURPS). Nothing in that regard exists with d20 (d20 Modern/Future are the closest, I think). Sure you can take a part from here and a part from there, but in all honesty, pretty much all the d20 games are seperate game systems, based on very, very few mutual concepts. They are all rather different once you look at the details.

That's not flexibility if the "system" allows you to drop and recreate 90% of its content. Every system can do that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

For me personally, nothing will negate the ease of having one die + mods over having a dozen dice to roll, explode, re-roll, count, and compare each round.

Heh. That's certainly a valid point, if someone simply dislikes the multiple d6 success counting stuff.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Cergorach]

Well, I don't think it's impossible to do it (and at least the last posts from others here say the same).

I do think, that it is impossible without an extraordinary amount of rewriting, tho.
And even then it would not be "better" than what we already have. Pointless, as others have said.

Extraordinary amount of rewriting? I don't think so, the point of going D20 is using a system so that people already familiar with the D20 system can plow right in and start playing without learning a whole new system.

Basing your Base Attack Bonus on skills instead of on levels in a particular character class, might change the D20 rules, but it leaves most of the combat system alone.

Hell, explaining how skill rolls worked in Shadowrun took me a while, not to mention the fact that i had to explain it to a couple of people. My D&D players are very familiar how skill rolls work in D&D, roll a D20 add skill modifier (based on skill points and attribute modifier) if it equals or is higher then the target numer it's a success, otherwise it's a failure. You can always make the rules more complex, but the basics they know.

Imho it;s not about Shadowrun D20 being better then Shadowrun D6, it's just an alternative for folks that don't want the hassle of learning or using 'new' system.

But let's be honest, the folks that make the game have been ademant that no D20 version will ever see the light of day. So, why bother with discussing the pros and cons, no one that matters is listening. The best we can hope for is that someone will make a D20 cyberpunk/fantasy game that has a rules set that gives the 'feel' of SR...

 

[Kestrel]

Yep.

When we played, the GM and decker player* eventually just used opposed rolls to get most of the decking done.

Also, the GM and rigger player signed an "anti-MIJI" accord, as they came to the conclusion that the EW rules were just plain too much to bother with.

Brad

* - A samurai with a datajack and computer skill; the guy who was going to play the decker never showed up, and the sam had essence left.

This is almost exactly what our Decking became. The main issue i had with it is that it makes the whole cyberdeck totally worthless. But its certainly easier.

We had to houserule rigging too, since the rules didn't mesh very well with standard combat. IMO, the rigging rules should have been a continuation of the standard combat rules, since most combats start on foot and then move to the vehicle when someone tries to escape. As they are written, you pretty much have to shift gears once someone steps into a car, which is totally confusing and very hard to run.

As an aside. My personal preference for M&M for SR is that it makes gear a standard part of the characters, as thier vehicles and tools are considered part of the points that go into the character. It solves the problems of karma vs. cash rewards. The points can be put into your "powers" which you then detail as cyberware, new spells, skills, or gear. In the end however, you are all using the same system so everything is balanced.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

As an aside. My personal preference for M&M for SR is that it makes gear a standard part of the characters, as thier vehicles and tools are considered part of the points that go into the character. It solves the problems of karma vs. cash rewards. The points can be put into your "powers" which you then detail as cyberware, new spells, skills, or gear. In the end however, you are all using the same system so everything is balanced.

I dunno - the "default" assumption of Shadowrun is that you will play people who are willing to do pretty much anything for money. But what is the point of money if you need to spend experience points on gear and cyberware instead?

 

[ruleslawyer]

By the same token, why do SR characters go on runs for money if they're then going to blow all that money on cyberware and magical components to use on the next run? Or, where does a character get off starting with 1m nuyen in stuff and then actually NEEDING to go on runs?

I'm with Henry; the fistfuls of d6s and wonky probabilities (I especially dislike the fact that 7s are as easy to get as 6s, 13s as 12s, etc., but really, the entire TN system is just weird) have turned off my players to SR. I'd love a d20 version, though as I said, it's only 'cause I'm too lazy to write one myself.

 

[Felon]

Heh...sure, I could. Don't think it'd bring any enlightenment to you, judging from that quote up there. I actually don't care who states that system and setting should not be confused...I'm talking neither. I'm talking a game. A game as a unique blending of rules and background.

OK, rather than saying you are talking about neither system nor setting, do you mean to say you're talking about both. What are "rules and background" if not synonymous terms for "system and setting"?

A game whose flair and feel are derivd by that mix of rules and background. It's fine if you prefer to separate both, and argue that one set of rules is easily exchangeable with another without problems...which it certainly can be, no argument there. You still are creating a different game with that process.

True, as has been estabilished earlier in this thread, a d20 Shadowrun would be different from what people are used to. Of course, a d20 SR would be targeted at those who aren't used to it.

It would take the the SR setting--its background, its major locales and personalities, and the major themes, challenges and objectives--and apply the conventions of the d20 system. Character generation and combat would play out differently than in the FASA/FanPro systems, and if character generation and combat represents the sum total of what SR amounts to for some players, then I guess I can see where they think that selling Shadowrun under the d20 banner is an oxymoron of sorts--as would playing any setting under anything other than its original system.

Or would you rather discuss my subjective opinions of how for example, going from SR's d6 mechanic to any variant of the d20 mechanic will change the feel of the game? That'd be like arguing with somebody who doesn't like the taste of shrimps why he doesn't like the taste of shrimps. Quite useless in all regards.

Sure, which is why subjective opinions don't merit consideration. I mean, if your attitude towards the premise of d20 SR is "what's the point?", then I kinda have to figure you realize that the point (or lack thereof) has to do with offering SR to an untapped venue of gamers, not to you personally. If you believe it would fail to appeal to a significant number of gamers, then by all means explain why. But if you believe it might sell a thousand or two copies, well, there's the point.

OK, let's take a look at it. First of all, Shadowrun has a completely different concept of "game balance". At character creation, you split your priorities five ways between Attributes (raw talent), Skills, Resources (equipment, money, cyberware), Race, and Magical Abilities (if any). In d20, the prime factor of game balance is the "character level". And this is where things start to get problematic.....Then there is Resources....And that's only cyberware. Are you going to charge someone effective character levels because he has some very neat vehicles....Magic in SR has quite a few differences from "standard" d20 as well....

This is not problematic once you realize that you don't do a system conversion to try to replicate the original system with painful exactitude. Silly to try, silly to think you need to. Capture the nuances of the setting, yes, but the nuances of the mechanics, no.

The SR setting does not necessitate a single method of character generation or one particular approach to allocating monetary resources or one way of determining initiative. And indeed, d20 likely handles some of those things in a way that some gamers may find more appealing. The comments about money, with characters able to amass wealth to such a degree that there's little incentive for any sane character to continue shadowrunning after one big score, is a pretty good example.

Trying to capture all this with d20 would again require a major re-work of the d20 rules. In summary, I repeat my position: Yes it is possible to do Shadowrun in d20. But to capture the mood of Shadowrun properly, you would have to create so many new rules that it would be like effectively learning a new system, negating the advantage of using d20 in the first place.

To get you to buy a copy, that is probably the case. But again, it's important to engrain into the ol' noggin here that d20 Shadowrun isn't for people who are already perfectly content with the extant system. I dunno, maybe that's where our big disconnect is.

And I think the D&D-Shadowrun comparison is silly. Yes, you have magic and fantasy races in Shadowrun, and you occasionally break into buildings to loot them. But that's about it. I've played both Shadowrun and D&D extensively, and the mood in those campaigns couldn't be more different.

And I find it be a little obtuse to deny that Shadowrun borrows a lot from D&D--especially if you're trying to support that position by referencing a difference as elusive and inconsistent as "mood". Mood can be radically different between two D&D campaigns. OTOH, some GM's SR campaign might have a very similar mood to his D&D campaign, with vault-robbing, artificat-plundering, and body-looting a plenty. To each their own.