D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Arkhandus]

To anyone who thinks Shadowrun ought to be made d20: No. Just no. :^D
SR doesn't need a d20 version. Shadowrun's style wouldn't fit that well with d20 and it'd be a pretty stupid waste of time to make a faithful d20 conversion of SR, and it would just be lame and over-complicated in the end, defeating the purpose of going d20 with it. SR 4th edition is on the way and likely to be an improvement as previous editions have been, don't be trashing it now just because it's been announced and no d20 version has been. FanPro is wise to keep SR its own game and not another d20 clone.

Oh, and hear! hear! Shemeska! Shadowrun books are a million times more fun to read than D&D books, unfortunately for D&D. Would be nice if WotC would bother making the D&D books less of a chore to read and more of a pleasure.

 

[JVisgaitis]

I always wanted to play Shadow Run but never got around to it. Hmm, now I'm being really tempted to give this a shot. . .

 

[Felon]

To anyone who thinks Shadowrun ought to be made d20: No. Just no. :^D
SR doesn't need a d20 version. Shadowrun's style wouldn't fit that well with d20 and it'd be a pretty stupid waste of time to make a faithful d20 conversion of SR, and it would just be lame and over-complicated in the end, defeating the purpose of going d20 with it.

...Except for those who would be able to play it and enjoy it and for that reason would buy it. Pointless, except for them.

But granted, I think SR does need it's own system exactly for those of you who want the things previous systems had to offer. Nothing wrong with it per se. Some d20 portability would, however, be appealing for those who don't think that having swiss army-knife characters is utterly essential to playing in the setting.

 

[Ottergame]

I think you could probably work it with:

Armour as DR
Damage saves
vastly expanded rules on degree of success, applying to basically everything from combat to spellcasting
No hitpoints per level
no restrictions on skill expenditure per level
no skill points per level
no saves per level
scaling prices for skill buying
a skill based magic system
no classes
no armour feats
no weapon feats
a skill based combat system

In fact, the only actual thing that would still be d20 would be the descriptions of what each stat actually is, the fact that you have 3 saves, and the fact that you roll a d20.

Oops, I guess you were right.

Hehe, that's not all. In Shadowrun, abilties take a much different roll then in D20. Strength in SR doesn't tell you just how hard you hit someone, it tells you how high your melee skills can be. It would be like saying that a fighter with a strength of 14 in D&D would have a capped BAB of 14, while a strength 28 ogre could have up to a +28 BAB.

Also, SR skills are rolled with varying number of d6s. This drasticaly changes the skill resolution mechanic. Someone with Pistols 3 would roll 3d6. That gives a range of 3-18, with the bell curve making the average roll 10 or 11. In d20, every number has an equal 5% chance of coming up. 1 is as likely as 10, and is as likely as 20. This means that you're just as likely to have a phenomical success as you are to have a disaterious failure, if you apply a system with varying degrees of success and failure, like in Shadowrun.

Someone swinging a sword in D&D always has a 5% chance of missing, and a 5% chance of hitting no matter what the defenses of the target is. In Shadowrun, that changes wildly on what the skill is of the person swinging the sword. Someone with a 1d6 skill always has a 1 in 6 chance of utterly failing. If they are trying to hit a target number of 10, though, they have a much, much less chance then that of hitting. They would have to roll a 6, and then roll a 4 or better on the die.

If I was better at math, I could crunch some numbers. But basically it comes to the point that in d20, you can always have a guranteed success at a task. A rogue with a +35 to hide is never going to be seen, even if he's unlucky enough to roll a 1. In d20, skills never fail on a 1. A rogue with a +1 to detect traps is never going to find that 23 DC trap, no matter how hard he tries. In SR, a person with a Computer skill of 10 gets 10d6, but they very well might miss that TN 12 roll they need. On the flip side, someone with Computer 1 might luck out and manage to hit that 12, and get the task done.

Again, it boils down to the point that if you change d20 into something that can pull SR off right, you've changed d20 into SR's native system.

I'll say it again, there's just some things d20 cannot do, and this is one of them.

 

[Ottergame]

...Except for those who would be able to play it and enjoy it and for that reason would buy it. Pointless, except for them.

But granted, I think SR does need it's own system exactly for those of you who want the things previous systems had to offer. Nothing wrong with it per se. Some d20 portability would, however, be appealing for those who don't think that having swiss army-knife characters is utterly essential to playing in the setting.

While SRs characters are flexible, I don't think you can really be a "swiss army knife character". You can be a decker/fighter/mage/rigger/sneak, yeah, but you're not going to be good at anything. A Gimp of Many Things. If you have a group of smart players, you will learn to focus on a couple of things, and let the other players shore up your weaknesses. Not everyone has to be a combat god, and not everyone has to know how to be a stunt driver extrodinare.

 

[Felon]

Again, it boils down to the point that if you change d20 into something that can pull SR off right, you've changed d20 into SR's native system.

Except that none of those mechanics you mention are in any way inextricably linked to Shadowrun. They just happen to be the mechanics of the system you played it with.

I'll say it again, there's just some things d20 cannot do, and this is one of them.

You say it, but you don't support it. To each their own.

While SRs characters are flexible, I don't think you can really be a "swiss army knife character". You can be a decker/fighter/mage/rigger/sneak, yeah, but you're not going to be good at anything. A Gimp of Many Things. If you have a group of smart players, you will learn to focus on a couple of things, and let the other players shore up your weaknesses. Not everyone has to be a combat god, and not everyone has to know how to be a stunt driver extrodinare.

Yes, from my experience with SR all of that is true. It is not Palladium by any stretch.

But a Street Samurai could very well be an advanced class, as could a decker, or mage. And you could probably be a street sam/shaman/decker. The character would just would be built according to a different system's specifications.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'm sorry.

I'm a moderate fan of Shadowrun. I am d20's little whore. And I even concede that Shadowrun d20 could, theoretically, be done well.

However, I think that a conversion would be a very bad idea. I do not think that it would be done right, as it would require very serious, complicated overhauls of the d20 System; it would require a level of effort, inspiration, and rigorous playtesting that d20 conversion games very, very rarely ever receive.

I do not think that these changes would make it unrecognizable as d20. However, they would have to be painstakingly balanced, especially in the area of magic and cyberware. These are elements of concern in the game as it exists now; however, d20's simpler resolution of actions and level-based mechanics would make it very possible for the game to come out an unbalanced, unplayable wreck.

Worse, if the conversion team were to use a fairly mainstream d20 approach, Shadowrun d20 would develop a fatal case of Deadlands syndrome-- a disease that turns quirky, flavorful, interesting game turned into boring, kludgy, soul-corroding mush.

I've frequently said that the biggest problem with Shadowrun has always been the system; however, even as much as I like the d20 system in general, I fear that any attempted d20 conversion of Shadowrun would be far more likely to make it worse rather than better.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Again, it boils down to the point that if you change d20 into something that can pull SR off right, you've changed d20 into SR's native system.

I've never played the Shadowrun pen n paper game.

I read quite a few of the Shadowrun novels and several of the sourcebooks, and played both the Genesis and SNES console RPGs based off the setting.

I have neither memory of nor interest in the old rules system; what little I saw of it I didn't like.

For me, "pulling SR off right" means capturing the flavor of the setting.

I have no idea how the new Shadowrun will play. Heck, it may end up being like SilCore, another d6 system and one I love to death.

But I know for a fact that either a SilCore or d20 version of the setting would be great fun for me personally. Even if it played absolutely nothing like the original game.

 

[Felon]

However, I think that a conversion would be a very bad idea. I do not think that it would be done right, as it would require very serious, complicated overhauls of the d20 System; it would require a level of effort, inspiration, and rigorous playtesting that d20 conversion games very, very rarely ever receive.

OK, that's an assertion I'd like to hear you provide some support for, which you start to do, but don't follow through on...

I do not think that these changes would make it unrecognizable as d20. However, they would have to be painstakingly balanced, especially in the area of magic and cyberware. These are elements of concern in the game as it exists now; however, d20's simpler resolution of actions and level-based mechanics would make it very possible for the game to come out an unbalanced, unplayable wreck.

OK, magic and cyberware. Incompatable. D20 can't handle that. Why so?

 

[Ottergame]

But a Street Samurai could very well be an advanced class, as could a decker, or mage. And you could probably be a street sam/shaman/decker. The character would just would be built according to a different system's specifications.

The problem is that those are just words. There is nothing in Shadowrun that makes someone a "street samurai". Only have a cyberdeck and datajack is all that's required to be a decker. In fact, the only thing in Shadowrun that resembles a class are the various mage types. but even that doesn't mean much.

Shadowrun doesn't lend itself to a class/level system. Archtypes are just lables, not restirctions, in SR.