D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Ravellion]

Felon: Bravo. The only problem with making a post such as that is that this thread is now going to fall off the front page because it is irrefutable.

Rav

 

[Felon]

And this thread got me wondering. Has anyone managed to make a classless and levelless D20 system game? Was it any good?

I believe D20 Call of Cthulhu was classless, but not level-less.

Mutants and Mastermind doesn't use levels, IIRC, but it's only OGL, not d20.

 

[Felon]

Felon: Bravo. The only problem with making a post such as that is that this thread is now going to fall off the front page because it is irrefutable.

Rav

Thanks for the kind words. I suspect someone will feel sufficiently baited to refute it. More's the pity since I think we should all try to acquiesce to the request to not hijack this thread anymorre. I've about said my piece

EDIT--Would love to participate in a thread on the rules forum on this topic, but if memory serves it's been tried and the thread typically degenerates into certain folks feeling impelled to relentlessly attack others' attempts to construct a d20 conversion.

 

[Ottergame]

Felon: Bravo. The only problem with making a post such as that is that this thread is now going to fall off the front page because it is irrefutable.

Rav

Not quite. There's still lots of people who play the d6 version of Star Wars, enough that WEG made a new version of their rulebooks, albeit in a more generic version. And yes, Star Wars isn't tied to a game system, because the RPGs were both built to fit an existing metaplot. You pointing that out doesn't eliminate it from being a point of agrument, but doesn't really reflect the current conversation. You could play Star Wars in GURPS, WoD, or FATAL, and it would be just as valid a Star Wars RPG.

But Shadowrun was built along with its rule system. They are tied together. Moving SR to d20 would -utterly change- the entire feel and function of the game. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun, or sell well, or that people wouldn't enjoy it. But it would NOT be the same Shadowrun.

And what's more, FanPro doesn't need to bother doing a converstion. Why should they waste their time, when you can already convert them with WOTC publish modern books? If someone is hell bent on playing Shadowrun is any other ruleset, they can convert it and play it. If nothing else, the utter uproar that went on over last years April Fools joke should be enough to tell FanPro that there's not much support for a d20 Shadowrun system.

FanPro should focus on keeping the quality of their products high, not trying to do 2 things at once, which is the problem AEG came accross when they tried to support d20 Rokugan and L5R at the same time.

L5R is another product that just does NOT translate to d20 well. They did their best, the books are well made and play well for what they are. But it's not L5R. The whole feel of the game is very, very different, and not for the better, in d20.

 

[Felon]

You could play Star Wars in GURPS, WoD, or FATAL, and it would be just as valid a Star Wars RPG. But Shadowrun was built along with its rule system. They are tied together. Moving SR to d20 would -utterly change- the entire feel and function of the game.

I assure you, were you to play Star Wars in GURPS, WoD, and FATAL, the feel and function would be utterly changed from one game to the next.

But Shadowrun was built along with its rule system. They are tied together. Moving SR to d20 would -utterly change- the entire feel and function of the game. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun, or sell well, or that people wouldn't enjoy it. But it would NOT be the same Shadowrun.

Exactly. It would be different. Not necessarily worse, by no means universally unplayable or unenjoyable, and certainly not everyone's cup of tea. Personally, what I felt was great about Shadowrun had little to do with ratcheting up my reflexes so that I can take 10 actions in a row, or with being able to design a character than can do a respectable job at fielding every position in a shadowrunners' baseball team. For me, it was about guns and spells and hackers tearing it up with monsters and megacorporations. And as far as any of that there's nothing in d20 that fails to deliver.

OK, now I've said my piece. Go to sleep, puppy.

 

[spider_minion]

I hope I'm not fanning the flames . . . but I had recently been working on my own personal Shadowrun-ish d20-ish conversion. For skills, I shrank the existing d20 skill list then added some new skills for weapons, magic, and defense (these replaced base attack). I made a ton of new feats (many were from the d20 Modern SRD) which would replace class abilites. There were levels but not classes per-se; characters have an occupation that determined their hit die, skill points, and starting feats but not much else. Every level, characters get skill and hit points as well as a bonus feat.

For magic, I made some magic paths that could be acquired with feats. Spellcasters had magic points, and how much MP a spell used depended on its level and the caster's skill check.

I playtested one session and it went pretty well. At some point I need to finalize it and post it on the message boards.

But did it capture the Shadowrun feel? I honestly don't know, having only played the SNES RPG and thumbed through a rulebook. But it was fun to play.

 

[Henry]

First of all: It's getting a little hotter in here. Let's please remember to be civil towards one another; we're all rolling the same platonic solids, here.

Second: I find myself in the same boat with Felon. While I do not dispute that Shadowrun original and a Shadowrun based on a "d20 + mods vs. target DC" would feel different in actual play, I also think it would be doable, and no less fun. Just like I have to agree with those who campion AD&D and 3E are "different games" because the rules sets were designed with different philosophies in mind. Would I get the same feel from rolling a 1 on a d20 as opposed to rolling a bloody handful of d6's and coming up snake eyes on ALL of them? No, because the chances of it happening are drastically different as to come up in different games.

However, I could also design a d20-based game that used "levels" to simulate starting advantages, a radically different skill system, and use the same stats for essense, and a similar damage code system to Shadowrun, and come up with something darned close.

I'm awaiting 4E's release to see what they've done with the dice vs. TN system and see if it'll be more streamlined. As it is, SR's setting rocks on toast; it's dice resolution mechanic, and the length of the average combat, jar my suspension of disbelief mercilessly, to the point where I can't see myself playing it regularly. I understand many of the underlying precepts:

*When you've pulled out guns, it's become a bad 'Run
*Combat is inherently deadly, to the point where you're going to die by the sword if you live by it
*Magic is more "organic" and dynamically attached to a 'user's skill and health


But some of these (the reluctance to get in a fight if needed) doesn't seem to make for a gripping game. Despite that I love the setting and history, maybe it isn't my game after all. With luck, They'll do something similar to what World of Darkness did and make it easier to track successes.

 

[GlassJaw]

I've played a lot of d20 and a lot of Shadowrun (all editions) and I can honestly say that I have no idea how people can say SR can be converted to d20 and stil "feel" the same. Just play both systems. That's the best advice I can give.

Shadowrun d20 is not Shadowrun anymore. Sure, it might be magic and cyberware and guns and cyberspace in the dark future but it won't be Shadowrun.

I just can't imagine rolling a d20 to see if I hit with my Predator against somebody's armor class.

 

[Dr Simon]

I'm not talking about the incompatibility of magic and cyberware; I think d20 could handle that at least as well as Shadowrun 3e does.

I'm talking about how to control the balance of how magic and cyberware work, individually. I imagine we could easily set up spell Force as a kind of augmentable spontaneous caster; however, how do we simulate Drain without making Mages either unstoppable magical artillery batteries or one-hit wonders with a case of the vapors? How do we reflect the ability of better-trained, more powerful Mages to resist Drain?

Will save? Caster Level check? Assuming conversion to a D&D-esque spell level system (which is by no means necessary, but familiar to all here), set DC=10+spell level. Certain spells (such as the ones in SR that have Serious or worse Drain) could have a further DC increase - say equivalent of Light Drain spells get, maybe -2 DC, Moderate are unmodified, Serious +2 Drain DC and Deadly +4 Drain DC.

Drain then becomes the kind of nonlethal damage that you get from dehydration etc. - you need proper rest to get rid of it rather than a ten minute breather.

I don't understand if you're talking about balancing cyber and magic in the sense that SR uses the mechanism that cyber decreases Essence, which decreases Magic score. I don't see why you couldn't have a mechanic whereby, assuming you determine the power of a spell in some way, be it Force, Spell Level or what have you, that cyber gradually depletes the maximum force that you can safely cast.

How do we model Initiation, and how do we differentiate it from simply improving whatever governs your Sorcery skill? (I'd imagine this would be a function of class level-- but how?)

Initiation in SR gives you two things - an increase in the potential spell-power and access to Metamagic skills. The second is easy if you only allow Metamagic feats to those who have Initiated. The first, well, maybe some variant on the "+1 spellcaster level" mechanic of prestige classes.

For cyberware, how would we model the awesome power of Move-by-Wire 4 without making it game-shattering? Reaction speed and reflexes are the determining factor of power for combat characters in Shadowrun. How do we reflect that in a d20 version? (Or would you call this a bug of the Shadowrun system and have other factors reign supreme?)

I don't really see much difference between SR cyber and many of the ability-enhancing magic items of D&D. Mechanically, Muscle Enhancement is the same as an Amulet of Bull's Strength and Wired Reflexes is like the IMproved Initiative feat.

I personally found that SR Wired Reflexes were so awesomely gross in their power compared to a non-wired character that I had to tone them down, so put me in the "bug" camp. However, if you used a system similar to the Babylon 5 d20 game, where characters don't have an AC but have a Defence Value (based on Reflex save) and armour provides Damage Resistance (and you son't get many hit points), then reaction, getting the first shot in and the ability to dive for cover quickly become *very* important

 

[Vocenoctum]

Re: Shadowrund20, I think the main thing would be the ability to cast magic all day long without a problem if you play your dice right, but I think Grim Tales might even handle that, so can't say.

If Shadowrun as a setting can't exist outside of the Legion of D6's, then it's not much of a setting. I think weapon lethality would be improved under just about every other setting made, but D20 & BRP (CoC) have too wide of a success curve for me. (Below say, 5th level, the D20 roll is more important than your skill rank, in BRP, a super genius might have 85% in a skill and that means he still fails 15% of the time vs SR, where tasks are more likely to succede, but degree of success is different.)

Re: Shadowrun 4.
I think it's a horrible mistake myself, but then I've made no secret that I consider FanPro's handling of the SR setting to be bad in general. The setting has died for me, and advancing it 5 years to totally change more stuff makes it worse in my eyes.

But that aside, lets talk History. When SR3 came out, they then updated all the supplemental rulebooks. Setting books were pushed to the side, and a huge black hole of product followed for several years. FanPro has been worse than FASA about release dates.

So, while it's true it's been some years since SR3, it hasn't been that many products. We're now looking at revised books for the new system that have only just finished coming out.

I left SR after the horrible book that was Shadows of Europe, and nothing in the SR4 blurb looks to draw me back in.