D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Saeviomagy]

I don't get it.

1. Upon character creation, choose three "core skills" (or 1 + Int bonus, or whatever). You get a +4 bonus on those skills. Tada! Characters who are particularly good at what they do.

Now give that character a DC 15 task (which is supposed to be moderate). He fails 25% of the time. That's a lot.

At the same time, he's got the potential to pull off a DC 30+ on a regular basis, which is supposedly a near-impossible task.

There's a lot of variance in d20. Once you start making someone good at the mundane end of things, they become extremely good at the other end of the scale.

2. Implement an Armor as DR and a class- or level-based Defense adjustment (a la AU). Do not increase hit points with level. Have a DM who enforces story-based problems should combat ever occur.

Ahh, so once again the prime difference between two foes in combat is what level they are.

My point isn't that it simply cannot be done. My point is that by the time you've made all the changes that I feel are needed, you're not really left with d20 any more. At the same time the current SR system has nuances that define the world of SR, and you've lost all of those too.

The only possible advantage that you've got is that there's a d20 badge on the book.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Vitality goes down FAST when a Force User is cranking out Force Powers.

And this makes him less able to fight? Less able to use his piloting skill? Less able to do electronics? Less likely to succeed at the next use of force powers?

No, didn't think so.

The second part of it was the "negatively impacts the job". I admit that you can change d20 to do this, but like I said - you're talking less and less about d20, and more about a system designed from scratch to emulate another system that already does the job.

 

[GlassJaw]

Sorry, Saev, you're pretty out-to-lunch on this one.

Well I agree with Saev so I guess I'm out to lunch too huh?

Sorry Patryn but that was borderline rude. There are a lot of people (myself included) that believe SR would be vastly different in d20. When I hear people say that the conversion to d20 would be seamless, I immediately think that they haven't played SR enough.

This sounds a lot different. And it seems like they are changing the setting dramatically.

They definitely could be. There's a lot of discussion on Dumpshock but it's not anywhere the level of craziness that went on when WotC announced 3.5.

Anyway, I think FanPro made a decision to tr to reach out to new players. The core SR following is very strong but my guess is that SR isn't really attracting new players.

I think FanPro just got tired of hearing about how complex the system was or that people don't use deckers because they slow down the game too much. SR3 has a lot of flaws. The decking and rigging rules are insane. They tried to simplify things in SR3 but unless you completely revamp the system, it will just end being a retread each time.

FanPro probably decided that losing a few core fans is worth picking up some new players. Sometimes a big shakeup is the only way that's going to happen. Have the release coincide with GenCon and you've at least created some attention for yourself.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think FanPro just got tired of hearing about how complex the system was or that people don't use deckers because they slow down the game too much. SR3 has a lot of flaws. The decking and rigging rules are insane. They tried to simplify things in SR3 but unless you completely revamp the system, it will just end being a retread each time.

FanPro probably decided that losing a few core fans is worth picking up some new players. Sometimes a big shakeup is the only way that's going to happen. Have the release coincide with GenCon and you've at least created some attention for yourself.

If the new system has a single core mechanic that EVERYTHING uses.
If the core mechanic is
Roll skill + bonus dice vs a varying TN
Stats may substitute at a worse TN
Degree of success is the number of rolls above the TN
Damage/success/gained information/level of persuasion all work based off the degree of success in a uniform manner

If the "new wireless world" means that riggers and deckers are merged, and deckers can actually do stuff while out on the run (which, if you looked hard enough in SR, you could already do)

If the changes due to the timeline put SR a little more in-line with our world, but don't change it so much that I can no longer use the books to play my ongoing campaign

Then I'm in.

 

[Sarellion]

I am wary of fanPro and it improvements. In my personal opinion they pretty much botched the 4th edition of their own system, DSA and made it unnecessarily klunky. DSA 3e needed revision but DSA 4e isn´t it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I am wary of fanPro and it improvements. In my personal opinion they pretty much botched the 4th edition of their own system, DSA and made it unnecessarily klunky. DSA 3e needed revision but DSA 4e isn´t it.

I'm pretty wary too, mainly because me and my group playtested one of the SOTAs. Basically everything we suggested was taken up, which indicates to me that either there isn't a whole lot of in-house rulemongers or their in-house rulemongers think exactly the same way as our group does.

Since 4e has had a basically secret development, I'm very worried what will happen if the former is true. If the latter is true, then I'll be exstatically thrilled by the new edition. However I'm quite worried that it is, in fact, the former, given some of the entries in the new faq...

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

It all depends on what "Shadowrun" means to you.

"Shadowrun" is a setting, a world, a vibe. The Aztec sixth age returns to a world on the cusp of a fairly standard Cyberpunk future; the return of magic propells the corps ahead of the governments, strange and dangerous phenomena impose upon the world, and many supernatural creatures return.

"Shadowrun" is a game. Roll a fistful of d6 and compare to a target number to discover the result of an action. Face high lethality from every combat. Have a fairly small range of variance in difficulties.

To me, Shadowrun is the former. The latter is a game system that happens to have been attached to the former. I don't particularly like the latter, but I'm a big fan of the former.

 

[Vocenoctum]

SR needs:
1. Starting characters that are flexible, and actually good at what they do
2. Deadly, risky combat that negatively impacts on the success of the job.

d20 doesn't do either of those well.

1) M&M does this by having PC's start at a higher power level. Since SR default PC's are generally capable, I think starting at a higher level is understandable.

2) The M&M system for damage encompasses wounds.

I'm not saying SR would make a good D20 game, but it depends on what you want from the game.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I'm curious to what you mean by 'took it over' and exactly what they did to ruin it.

FASA closed it's doors, SR went to WizKids, which licensed it to FanPro, therefor FanPro sort of took over. They had no idea what they were doing, and relied on the Dumpshock Clique for support in a lot of ways.

As for the "ruin it" stuff, SR's flavor has changed over the years, and IMO not for the better. I'm sure the Dumpshock folks love SR4, because the clique that runs DS is a major influence on the current incarnation of the game. Those not involved tend to want to be.

IMO, SR has taken on a bit more of a European market, and the game has changed to reflect that.

To draw a parallel, when D&D 3.5 was announced, folks said it was basically "the writers house rules". But that was simply a system. With SR4, they've houseruled the entire gameworld along with the system.

Anyway, their bland material drove me away, their SOTA stuff was bleh and I have every reason to believe the new rules tweaks will make the game worse for my tastes, and the new setting material is bound to make me cranky.

 

[shadow]

I suppose that I'm getting into quite a voilatile topic. (dons flame retardant suit)

Personally I would really LOVE to see a Shadowrun d20 conversion. Why? For several reasons.

The ancient magic meets high-technology setting of Shadowrun appeals to me. However, I was never very impressed by the rule mechanics. (Blasphemy!) I really don't care to much for "fistful o' dice" based mechanics. (Yes, I really don't like Shadowrun's rules. Please don't "geek" me!) Sure, a d20 conversion would result in different probabilities for certain rolls. However, IMHO, the strength of the game lies in the setting, not in a certain set of mechanics (even if the mechanics were designed for the setting). Also, most of the people I play with are very familiar with the d20 system. It would make the game run a lot smoother if the players actually were familiar with the rules from the beginning, rather than have to learn a whole new system.

Finally, I see the d20 system as being fairly modular. With so many options and sourcebooks (dare I say d20 glut?) it is easy to add things to the game and change things around a bit. Want to add psionics to Shadowrun? There are several different psionics systems available for d20 besides the official Psionics Handbook. Same thing goes for new magic, new tech, martial arts, etc. Also, with d20 it would be easier to modify the setting for individual GMs. Such things may rankle Shadowrun purists, but to each his own.

I am by no means advocating an abolition of the current rule set, I don't believe in "one system to rule them all", rather that the d20 option should be available for those groups that would like to see it. I would just like to see one book with the core rules converted to d20.