D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well I agree with Saev so I guess I'm out to lunch too huh?

Well, you know what they say re: shoes of appropriate size ...

Now give that character a DC 15 task (which is supposed to be moderate). He fails 25% of the time. That's a lot.

At the same time, he's got the potential to pull off a DC 30+ on a regular basis, which is supposedly a near-impossible task.

"On a regular basis," huh?

Let's see ... An initial 4 ranks in a skill, +4 for "Core," +2 for a high ability score ... I guess a 1-in-20 shot (or a "Can't do it at all" shot) is on a regular basis, eh?

Maybe your definitions and mine just don't mesh well, huh?

And, regarding a DC 15 task (which is supposed to be "moderate"), that's doable all the time even without the "Core" bonus, just by taking 10. With the Core bonus, a 1st-level character can routinely pull off DC 20 tasks without breaking a sweat. That sounds like "reasonably competent" to me.

The only time they can't automatically pull of those things on the first try are once combat's started or during other "No Taking 10" situations.

Again, that sounds like "good at what they do" to me.

Ahh, so once again the prime difference between two foes in combat is what level they are.

Shouldn't it be? Doesn't someone who's spent a lot of time getting shot at (like, say, a war veteran) generally react better under fire than someone straight out of boot camp?

Or, hell, make "Combat Defense" another skill. Make attack rolls and defense rolls opposed, rather than D&D static defense.

I mean, seriously, your objections are pretty weak.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And maybe Henry's got it right.

When I think Shadowrun, I don't think "I need X d6s to do this, and my TN is Y, and ..."

I think of being the first elf to graduate from MIT&M, despite his involvement with a Boston-based elven biker gang, with a degree in Electrical Engineering and Thaumaturgy. I think about taking out one of those little life insurance policies that bring along with it the promise of a speedy extraction. I think about walking in to a corporate headquarters through the delivery door after frotzing the security cameras, hoping to walk out with their lead programmer - or at least with a soft copy of his work. I think about meeting a drug lord in a "major metropolitan city," finding out he has connections to XCorp and is doing a little "market research" for them on the city's lower classes - and being very, very glad no one saw the sawed-off hiding under my armored trench coat.

To me, Shadowrun is a mood and a setting. Whether I roll one die and add a bunch of numbers to it, or 10 dice and add a bunch of numbers to it, just isn't all that important.

 

[Thanee]

Great news. Will certainly have to watch out for this.

And good to know, that there will not be an (official) d20 shadowrun. That would require pretty much a complete rewrite of the d20 rules to make it fit and there is very little point to it. You really don't have to d20icize everything. A bit of variety doesn't hurt. And one could still make a game similar to shadowrun with d20, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

 

[kigmatzomat]

Excellent points, all! And I do agree, except that I'd really like to see a d20 SR conversion, even a homebrew, largely because my (very experienced) SR players refuse to play SR again because they feel that the mechanics are too wonky (specifically, they're concerned over the "odd statistical events" that you mentioned).

Oh, I understand. I know lots of people who think SR is whacked because the statistical breakdown is non-intuitive. Amazingly, a lot of those people still play White Wolf games without balking. That's the game system that irritates me. Haven't touched nWoD yet but if it keeps the "odds of botching exceed the odds of success" mechanics then I'm still keeping my distance.

It's just whining, I guess; wanting something that I should just do the hard work to write myself. Sigh...

Mmmm, laziness. I grok laziness well. I recommend checking out the now-out-of-print Dragonstar RPG. It assumes a weird DnD techno-magic fantasy-future setting but the bulk of the mechanics would be relevant to a d20 SR conversion (firearms, body armor, communicators, laser blasters, vehicles, etc). Add in some SR sourcebooks and it might be a pretty straightforward event.

 

[Felon]

I think the start wars setting is probably not the best one for saying "look, d20 really does work with anything!".

Lightsabre=sword
Force=magic
planets=countries

And all of a sudden, star wars is actually an epic fantasy, not a sci fi... IOW if d20 does star wars well, it's actually doing epic fantasy well. Which is what it was originally designed to do.

Well, I'm not sure how you're saying SR is markedly different in that respect. Star Wars is labeled sci-fi because it has blasters and spaceships. SR is labeled cyberpunk because it has guns and cybernetics. Same standards apply, if not to a stronger degree. In SR:

swords = swords
magic = magic
countries = countries.

And the matrix is essentially a morphic plane.

SR needs: 1. Starting characters that are flexible, and actually good at what they do

In D20, this can be accomplished by starting PC's at a higher level than 1st. A 6th level character is very effective and potentially very flexible (with room to grow). Simple enough.

[2. Deadly, risky combat that negatively impacts on the success of the job.

Lots of optional rules make D20 combat very deadly. I'd run through'em, but I know you're as familiar with them as I am. True enough?

Even in D&D, combat can be pretty darn deadly without the presence of curative magic. I kill about one player a session without really even trying.

 

[Felon]

And maybe Henry's got it right. When I think Shadowrun, I don't think "I need X d6s to do this, and my TN is Y, and ..."

I think of being the first elf to graduate from MIT&M, despite his involvement with a Boston-based elven biker gang, with a degree in Electrical Engineering and Thaumaturgy. I think about taking out one of those little life insurance policies that bring along with it the promise of a speedy extraction. I think about walking in to a corporate headquarters through the delivery door after frotzing the security cameras, hoping to walk out with their lead programmer - or at least with a soft copy of his work. I think about meeting a drug lord in a "major metropolitan city," finding out he has connections to XCorp and is doing a little "market research" for them on the city's lower classes - and being very, very glad no one saw the sawed-off hiding under my armored trench coat.

To me, Shadowrun is a mood and a setting. Whether I roll one die and add a bunch of numbers to it, or 10 dice and add a bunch of numbers to it, just isn't all that important.

Ah, now that's the stuff!

And completely d20able.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

And maybe Henry's got it right.

When I think Shadowrun, I don't think "I need X d6s to do this, and my TN is Y, and ..."

I think of being the first elf to graduate from MIT&M, despite his involvement with a Boston-based elven biker gang, with a degree in Electrical Engineering and Thaumaturgy. I think about taking out one of those little life insurance policies that bring along with it the promise of a speedy extraction. I think about walking in to a corporate headquarters through the delivery door after frotzing the security cameras, hoping to walk out with their lead programmer - or at least with a soft copy of his work. I think about meeting a drug lord in a "major metropolitan city," finding out he has connections to XCorp and is doing a little "market research" for them on the city's lower classes - and being very, very glad no one saw the sawed-off hiding under my armored trench coat.

To me, Shadowrun is a mood and a setting. Whether I roll one die and add a bunch of numbers to it, or 10 dice and add a bunch of numbers to it, just isn't all that important.

Now that's Shadowrun.

Especially to someone like me, who's never actually... y'know... PLAYED the game.

 

[GlassJaw]

Why is it that everyone who wants a d20 version of Shadowrun so intent on convincing those that don't? :\

If you think it can be done, great. Just do it! I don't need convincing. I like SR just the way it is.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Why is it that everyone who wants a d20 version of Shadowrun so intent on convincing those that don't? :\

If you think it can be done, great. Just do it! I don't need convincing. I like SR just the way it is.

Well, in my case it's because I have a campaign going in another setting and a whole lot of writing work. Creating an entire OGL game in my spare time that can never make me a dime and that isn't compatible with my present campaign is not good time management.

I'd like a d20 Shadowrun in the same way I was delighted to see d20 Warcraft - a setting I like produced by somebody else in a format I'd like to play.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Why is it that everyone who wants a d20 version of Shadowrun so intent on convincing those that don't?

Because some of those that don't aren't just saying, "We're happy with what we have."

They're saying, "Not only are we happy with what we have, but it's impossible to do it any other way. However, if by the unholy grace of some dark demon you manage to try to do it some other way, it will suck and it won't be Shadowrun."

I have no problem with those who fall into the first group. I have a very low opinion of those who fall into the second.