D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Umbran]

Part of my problem with the whole d20 conversion thing just dawned upon me. It's analogous to remaking a movie.

There's no artistic reason for Hollywood to so frequently remake movies. An occasional remake may be sensible (every genre can use an equivalent of some Shakespeare plays), but the incessant need to remake is driven my marketing, not art.

What is the artistic gain in remaking Shadowrun as a d20 game? The current SR system does its job pretty darned well. What is the gain in slapping kluges over d20 where it doesnt match SR flavor, when you can steal some setting elements from SR, and make a new d20 game that plays to d20's strengths instead?

 

[GlassJaw]

Once again, Umbran is the voice of reason. Or at least makes a really good point.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Once again, Umbran is the voice of reason. Or at least makes a really good point.

Yep, a very good point.

But that doesn't mean SR COULDN'T be done in d20, which is really the point of many others.

 

[GlassJaw]

But that doesn't mean SR COULDN'T be done in d20, which is really the point of many others.

True. It certainly could be done.

But many others also feel that if it is done, it will play quite differently than SR as it exists today.

Valid points, all.

 

[ecliptic]

I like the Shadowrun setting, I will never play it using the lame system again.

 

[Kesh]

The difficult parts of converting Shadowrun to d20 without changing the feel are magic, cyberware and the matrix.

Most of the rest can be done without hurting the feel too much. Magic is a bit harder, since we have to treat spells like skills, with separate points from the real skill points, and drain/damage that doesn't work anything like d20.

Cyberware can be done, but it'd be tricky to give some of the actual 'ware the same feel in d20 it has in SR, without horribly hurting game balance.

And the Matrix... well, luckily it's getting a major revamp in 4e. The Matrix has always been a mess. x.x

Saeviomagy, people do understand what you're saying. They simply disagree. A major part of SR's feel comes from how the rules interact with the setting. If you throw out the rules entirely, and just make a d20 game with SR's setting (say, with d20 Modern / Future / Arcana), you get a different beast with a different feel that's supposed to be in the same world.

You can run the same stories, but it does change the feel. Just like you can make sugar cookies with icing, or sugar cookies with fruit on top. They're both sugar cookies, but they don't taste the same or have the same texture anymore.

 

[Umbran]

But that doesn't mean SR COULDN'T be done in d20, which is really the point of many others.

Frankenstein Syndrome - frequently, people get wrapped up in arguments about whether a thing can be done before they really address whether it should be done.

I think also, there's a matter of taste involved - whether or not it can be done successfully really depends upon one's error tolerance. One person's sucessful conversion to another will feel completely different.

For example - SR uses a dice pool mechanic. That leads to probability curves markedly different from those generated by a single d20, especially when the rule of 6s applies. In order to make the two match, DCs in the d20 version would need to be seriously munged over.

Some people would not notice the difference, and could use fairly normal d20 DCs. Some would notice, but accept the munged DCs. Others would notice the difference, and find the munged DCs annoying, and not accept the conversion.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I must be a freak since I like both d20 and SR mechanics. *BUT* they are significantly different in how things unfold.

d20's stat+skill+mods+d20 system has a very flat distribution; there's no bell curve, it's a flat line. A fair die is equally likely to roll a 1 as a 10 as a 20. You cannot minimize your absolute chance of failure below 5% without resorting to the take10/20 rules. On the flip side, virtually any schmuck can pick up a paint brush and a canvas and have a 5% chance of spitting out if not a da Vinci then at least a Rockwell.

SRs fist-full-o-dice mechanic results in a proper distribution curve that has a bias towards greater than normal results because of the re-rolls. Someone who is significantly more skilled than another person will fail far less often and is capable of superior results due to the success-graded events. This gives two axis for evaluating success; TN and # of successes.

d20 tends to be a much simpler and straight forward process. SR can create some odd statistical events where it is better to default to a very high stat at a penalty rather than using the appropriate skill just to be able to throw more dice. You can also squeeze out some extra statistical lovin' at the TN6/7 breakpoint in some situations. Add in dice pools and beginners are immediately in the deep end of game mechanics and statistical living. This is not intuitive and tends to confuse or irritate a lot of players. (I imagine it's a lot like Hero/Champions in that regard)

For all that, SR has some distinctive strengths (single roll covers attack and damage, degrading abilities, flexibility, readily extended mechanics, etc) that once you get to know them become really hard to let go of. SR has a fanbase that has been playing for, oh geez, decades now. There's no point in alienating them for no reason when the system works well and remains fairly backwards compatible. I still use SR1 supplements in SR3 games with only minimal effort. Now tell me I could do that in SRd20 with a straight face.

For the people who want SRd20 I say get d20 Future/Modern, a used SR2, and some of the SR setting books. Go forth and enjoy yourselves. But leave my dice pool alone.

 

[Henry]

Part of my problem with the whole d20 conversion thing just dawned upon me. It's analogous to remaking a movie.

Going with that analogy, Umbran, Shadowrun is to me a foreign film. Let's say it's a Japanese Animation. EVEN BETTER - Let's say that Shadowrun is Cowboy Bebop.

I Love Cowboy Bebop. It's possibly the only Anime I like that I've tried so far. But let's say that the company who made Bebop refused to allow an american company to come in, and re-dub the series. If you want to listen to it, it MUST be in the original Japanese. In fact, they won't even agree to put subtitles on the darned thing.

When I look at untranslated Cowboy Bebop, it looks like it could be a cool series. In fact, when I watched the Re-dubbed Cowboy Bebop, to me the voice actors nailed it DEAD ON - the characterizations, the interplay between characters, the sound effects, the plot line - they nailed it and did such a smooth job, that they hooked me.

Looking at the Cowboy Bebop that in an alternate universe the creating company refused to translate, it's nothing more than something that looks like it could be interesting, but for which I am not about to put the time and effort into following. I COULD take time to learn the language, but let's say Japanese is a tongue that I simply cannot master, or let's say that I could, when I wanted to, fluently understand Japanese, but putting so much effort into understanding it ruins my ability to actually sit down and enjoy the series.

That's Shadowrun to me. The original has every right to exist, and no one's saying there should be no more run of CB in the original Japanese, but it'd be cool to me (and a few other people) if someone took time to make a version I could understand. SURE I'm missing all of the subtle nuances and word-plays of the original, but I'm getting enough out of the version I'm watching to make it worth my while.

Just as translating a foreign film on the fly lessens my enjoyment of the finished product, the system mechanic for resolution in Shadowrun makes me slow down to a crashing halt while I tabulate up target numbers, count up succseses on dice, compare them to successes of my opponent, and gauge how many dice I'm going to spend on an action to make it worthwhile. Another gamer fluently familiar with Shadowrun's mechanics may find this a no-brainer, but I don't and it breaks my suspension fiercely like trying to ski on sandpaper.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I must be a freak since I like both d20 and SR mechanics. *BUT* they are significantly different in how things unfold.

d20's stat+skill+mods+d20 system has a very flat distribution; there's no bell curve, it's a flat line. A fair die is equally likely to roll a 1 as a 10 as a 20. You cannot minimize your absolute chance of failure below 5% without resorting to the take10/20 rules. On the flip side, virtually any schmuck can pick up a paint brush and a canvas and have a 5% chance of spitting out if not a da Vinci then at least a Rockwell.

Technically, no. That only applies to attacks and saves. But I take your point.

SRs fist-full-o-dice mechanic results in a proper distribution curve that has a bias towards greater than normal results because of the re-rolls. Someone who is significantly more skilled than another person will fail far less often and is capable of superior results due to the success-graded events. This gives two axis for evaluating success; TN and # of successes.

d20 tends to be a much simpler and straight forward process. SR can create some odd statistical events where it is better to default to a very high stat at a penalty rather than using the appropriate skill just to be able to throw more dice. You can also squeeze out some extra statistical lovin' at the TN6/7 breakpoint in some situations. Add in dice pools and beginners are immediately in the deep end of game mechanics and statistical living. This is not intuitive and tends to confuse or irritate a lot of players. (I imagine it's a lot like Hero/Champions in that regard)

For all that, SR has some distinctive strengths (single roll covers attack and damage, degrading abilities, flexibility, readily extended mechanics, etc) that once you get to know them become really hard to let go of. SR has a fanbase that has been playing for, oh geez, decades now. There's no point in alienating them for no reason when the system works well and remains fairly backwards compatible. I still use SR1 supplements in SR3 games with only minimal effort. Now tell me I could do that in SRd20 with a straight face.

For the people who want SRd20 I say get d20 Future/Modern, a used SR2, and some of the SR setting books. Go forth and enjoy yourselves. But leave my dice pool alone.

Excellent points, all! And I do agree, except that I'd really like to see a d20 SR conversion, even a homebrew, largely because my (very experienced) SR players refuse to play SR again because they feel that the mechanics are too wonky (specifically, they're concerned over the "odd statistical events" that you mentioned). It's just whining, I guess; wanting something that I should just do the hard work to write myself. Sigh...