[OT] Yet another martial arts help thread.....so, please help!!

[mythago]

If your that padded up and I strike

I'm thinking more from the POV of the person doing the striking. Of course it's not the same as fighting an unpadded opponent, but you do get to try the full-force strikes without hurting the other person--and while IRL you aren't going to hit somebody in full padding, you might hit somebody in a Kevlar vest or heavy leather jacket.

 

[Darius101]

I remember the thread from before....when you were trying to decide before.

There is alot of good advice around here in this thread as well.

#1 Judo is good for competition but horrible for self defense. We used to take the Judo guys apart in Aikido and Taihojitsu class.

#2 Juijitsu is based on chin-na techniques and is what most Samurai families learned. It is excellent for self-defense and will keep you in shape. Aikijitsu is a derivative of this fine art and is the hard style to the softer Aikido. O'Sensei started out in Aikijitsu and later changed it to Aikido.

#3 Karate is a good martial art for self defense but I would go check out the school to see if they are teaching more form style or hands on style. Many schools are also more competition oriented and will teach more forms than sparring. Based in part of Chinese Boxing among other things.

#4 Kickboxing is good as you already have some experience in that art. It will help you to develop basic self defense and you can work on closing the gap skills from Hung Gar. It is not enough though hen it comes to practical self-defense as it does not account for tackles or falling unexpectedly.

#5 Hwa Rang Do & Muay Thai (but only as a last resort) again I would stay away from Muay Thai unless you were getting into competition. Hwa Rang Do is not a 'do' like Judo, kendo or Iado it is more like a karate or Tae Kwan Do ..you will learn a little self defense but get more of a false sense of security in your first real street fight....this could cause serious harm to you and those you would protect. We also used to love parring with those Tae Kwan do guys as they always got tied up when they kicked students from our classes. Once on the ground they always lost..and then complained about it.

If I had my choice I would take Aikido, Taihojitsu or Wing Chun if they are offered in your area. All teach good basics and when taught right will teach you to defend yourself from numerous attacks. Taihojitsu is Japenese police self defense and Aikido is what all officers in Japan take before they become cops. I only know this because my teacher was the Soke for Taihojitsu for many years in Tokyo.
On another note....in Taihojitsu we used Kendo armor and kenpo gloves to practice full force sparring. It not only was more practical than the 'redman' suits it allowed you to feel the strikes and know how to react to these hits. Redman suits makes you feel like a tank more than a sparring partner. we only had one guy who hit hard enough to crack the fiberglass kendo armor and nomatter what you wore it hurt when he hit us. If a punch is taught correctly then the force will penetrate any armor and haveing been on the recieving end is always an experience.

For self defense you want something that will teach you to get away from an attacker...not just something that will kill or diable him/her. The best advice is to go look at each school and see how they teach and what the teacher says.

Hope that helps,
Darius

P.S. If you have a good Kenpo school this might be worth trying out but it is really a combination of Wing Chun and Karate techniques. we used to say it was watered down Wing Chun and after trying a class of it I tend to agree. The Kempo people i fought with were over confident 90% of the time and had medium ability in sparring at my same level and time in Wing Chun.

 

[DDK]

They tend to fall into a few broad catigories, and I don't mean to offend: Embittered, they didn't get wha they expected or when they expect it from the art. It wasn't a quick fix. Short Changed, they didn't really get a good school, and after the bad expierence moved on without searching out better quality instruction, or even realizing until much later that they were shafted. Selling Something, this one is trying to peddle off another system of some sort, or a personal fighting philosophy, that they claim to be the ultimate for one reason or another.

Heh, not at all. I loved my karate classes. I went three to four times a week for about six months. Two of those classes were meant for advanced (black & brown) belts but I didn't know and just kept going until one day the sensai said, "Umm... you do realize this is the advanced class, right?" and I was like, "Err... heh, nope... it ain't advertised as such! Can I stay?" and he was ok with it mainly because I'd spent several years beforehand practicing on my own time and my style, in his own words, was "...better than most of his seniors..."

The only thing that stopped me was a nervous breakdown and financial ruin. Unfortunately, I haven't gone back since.

My comments, however, are related to actual experience in stand-up fights. I've been in five fights where my life depended on the outcome, two of which involved knife-wielding maniacs (and I don't use that term lightly, one was high on amphetimines, the other thought it grand to suck on aerosol cans of paint thinner) who didn't just want to scare me off, but wanted me dead and came after me for that specific purpose.

Anyone who knows me from the past on these forums could probably argue that they had justifiable reason

As for the comments, re: krav maga, yeah, sure, you 'can't' use them on the street... but I sure as hell would if it came down to it. By the time a fight has gotten to the stage where it's lethal, whether a fist has been thrown or it's still a standoff, to me, there is no in-between, it's kill or be killed, and I'll be damned if I'm the one that's gonna go down...

Since I've smacked people in the past who've threatened me, I can only say that cops understand the situation much better than most people give them credit for and the fact of the matter is, is that the matter pretty much starts or goes with them. If they think you used excessive force, then something will be made of it, but if they think you just defended yourself to the best of your abilities and the other guy was just a punk... then most cops I've dealt with would push any complaint the guy had under the rug, 'cause they know he's just a punk and deserved all he got.

Better, maybe, but definately not a cure for the trouble. Until we get fully functional VR or disposable, afordable combat training androids, there is no really good answer.

Oooh, I WANT ONE!

 

[Kail]

Ok, back from a very long day of work and losing and Ebay bid on the LotR RPG, man what a day.

Ok, zdanboy, down to karte/jujitsu and kickboxing is it sir? Well, what I've experienced in kickboxing I've laid out for you previously. Others have chimed in as well, so I guess I'll continue with the thread. Someone smack me around if I start sounding too full of myself, its easy to do with something you enjoy the way I enjoy the fighting arts.

I'll start with jujitsu then. As others have said, check out the school, see if they are teaching a competition oriented style. What you want to look for is a form of jujitsu that is still well rounded. The Gracie family, for all their fame, concentrate far too much on ground work to be practical in a self defense situtation. Too much time on the ground is too much time in an encounter where you are not really in control. The selling point of many schools the emphasis ground work to the detriment of other aspects of the art is that the vast majority of fights end up on the ground. This may be true, but the vast majority of people in fights are completely at a loss for how to maintain their balance. If the style taught does not still include some hand strikes, the three primary kicks{front, back and side} and limb manipulation while standing you are being shorted of it's full value as a fighting art. It is an excellent arts to study, with strengths in unbalancing, thrwoing and join locking. It was ment to quickly escape from holds, render oponents unable to fight and keep you alive until you got your hands on another weapon.

Karate has the good and the bad as well. The bad is that it can be as bad as TKD for commericalization. Check out the school, if they are claiming to be a non-competition oriented school and don't have several of the following, your being cheated of the full potential of the art. Their training should include basic techniques, body and limb conditioning, contact sparing, self-defense drilling{both fixed and spontaneous{SP}}, and forms training. A note on kata, or forms, while others see little or no value in them other than cardiovascular conditioning, they are the treasure of classical martial arts for a reason. That reason is not about promoting or looking cool or competing. Kata, when properly taught with bunkai{bad spelling of the term used for application} they give examples of how movements are to be used in sequence and just how the bodies movments can be put together effectively. It takes a good teacher who will know and give more than the "this block is a down block for a kick" explaination, when in fact it may be a representation of an arm bar after a punch has been parried. It is from this format that you learn the depth of Karate and all the various things that it encompasses, with circular movments, angled attacks and join manipulation appearing as if out of no where. When masters were said to have hidden their styles from others, kata/forms were one of the key tools for this. The Chinese arts have done the same thing, and systems such as the much famed Sholin and White Crane forms are reported to have had a major impact on the developement of Okinawan Karate. The implimentation of sparring and self-defense drills will also be important. Both should occure regularly and not be closed off or limited too strictly. Ask about these sorts of things, do so politely, but expect very honest and strait forward answers in return. My personal experience has been with an Okinawan form of Shorin Ryu. My traditional training has served me well when training with a professional kickboxer, Aikido/Aikijujitsu stylists, Sholin Kung Fu folks, altercations at my place of work and handling angry, armed drunks. I attriubte that too a good instructor and literally lots of blood, sweat and tears.

As Darius 101 has said, most decient schools will let you come in for a trial class or two. Its good manors and good business sense to do so. Those who won't let you set through a class or train once or twice fore free, I would worry about.

Fourecks,
I'm sorry you haven't had a chnace to continue your training in traditional karate. Its a worth while endevor with plenty of practical reqards.

Darius 101,
Some dangerous generalizations you make there about Hwa Rang Do and Kempo. Hwa Rang Do is not TKD. They relate about the same way boxing and slap fighting do, barely at all. Hwa Rang Do is an old warriors art, covering a full range of fighting techniques. TKD, while able to be effective in a fight is very may times sprot oriented, and usually is so up front. Kempo folks having a false sense of security, sounds more like a bad school than the poor art your seem to be pointing toward. It is also related to Wing Chung the same way Judo is to Kenjitsu, as in originating in the same country, unless your talking Shorinji Kempo, which is Japanese. Flase sense os security come not from styles, but bad instructors and lazy parctitioners. Bad instructors fill you with their hot air and set you up to be hurt no matter how hard you train. Lazy practitioners set themselves up for a fall inspite of what an instructor might be doing.

Enough for now, another horridly long day at work awaits me in a few more hours, but after that we have class!

Night all,
Kail

 

[Darius101]

To skip this part go to the last paragraph for the main point of this writing...

Darius 101,
Some dangerous generalizations you make there about Hwa Rang Do and Kempo. Hwa Rang Do is not TKD. They relate about the same way boxing and slap fighting do, barely at all. Hwa Rang Do is an old warriors art, covering a full range of fighting techniques. TKD, while able to be effective in a fight is very may times sport oriented, and usually is so up front. Kempo folks having a false sense of security, sounds more like a bad school than the poor art your seem to be pointing toward. It is also related to Wing Chung the same way Judo is to Kenjitsu, as in originating in the same country, unless your talking Shorinji Kempo, which is Japanese. Flase sense os security come not from styles, but bad instructors and lazy parctitioners. Bad instructors fill you with their hot air and set you up to be hurt no matter how hard you train. Lazy practitioners set themselves up for a fall inspite of what an instructor might be doing.

I thought I had made it fairly clear...guess not. I never said they were from the same country at all. Also read what I wrote in my P.S. That was my experience with Kempo.
I ment only from the name standpoint not from any experience at all in the art of Hwa Rang Do i realize that it is not TKD at all but the I figured it needed said that it is not like the japenese way of naming an art like Judo, Jodo, Kendo, Iado...ect..
I did not in any way mean to imply that Judo or kenjitsu are the same but the roots for the 'do' arts in Japan come from many of the jitsu styles. First let me say that Kenjitsu is the study of sword and Judo is a sport that has nothing to do with swords.
Yes "do" means way or path. So Kendo means way of the sword. Jodo means way of the staff (4ft staff to be exact).
For example:
Ueshiba started to train in Aikijitsu and later realized he could make changes to the art and it became Aikido. Is Aikido different than Aikijitsu? Yes in many ways. There is more to it than this but you get the idea.

Jujitsu is the art that Jigaro Kqno trained in at first and then he took from it and created Judo. Is judo the same as Jujitsu? No it is not the same at all. The throws are similar however. for detailed information on this subject read Jigaro's book on judo.

Kempo is a combination of Karate, wing chun and weapon fighting. Read some of Parkers books on the subject and you will see what I mean. Perhaps it was the two or three people that i fought against in competition that were just overconfident. They were all from different schools and different areas of the country. I will try to refrain from making generalizations from now on. Point taken....

"Hwa Rang Do is an old warriors art, covering a full range of fighting techniques. TKD, while able to be effective in a fight is very may times sport oriented, and usually is so up front. "

TKD is also an old warroirs art. TKD has only recently been taken to a sport level. Before 1940's or so it was quite a bit different. There is a school here called the Kang Do Wan which teaches an older form of TKD and if you call it TKD the teacher get's visibly upset but will patiently point out what is different. I have had lengthy conversations with this teacher and he is quite knowledgeable. Some of his students however, have this overconfidence problem. Not a problem of the teacher but of the student.
Now to address the Kata issue:
Yes many arts hide their secrets within Kata or forms. This is a result of many things. One of which was that regular people could not do martial arts but they could excersize. Many of the Karate Schools I have seen, and there have been many many schools....teach kata for competition, for health and to get you used to the movement.
Martial arts are a movement art it is dynamic. Kata and forms teach you basics like footwork and proper placement of arms and legs. I have seen people who were excellent at forms but horrible at fighting. And others that were excellent at fighting but couldn't do a form if their life depended on it.
Yip Man said that his entire art was contained in his 'little idea" form. All foundations are found in this form. Siu Liam Tao (not sure of correct spelling). It is through hard work and dedication that you will learn how correct he was about this form.

My judo instructor told me that only the women in Japan learn the kata in judo. The men Frown on it. They do work on technique though. He also told me that before 1950 only judo had a belt system for Kyu ranks. He found it ammusing that Americans are so hung up on the belt system. My chinese intructor not only had no belt system he just laughed when someone asked him if he was an ornage sash.
My Chinese intructor became an instructor after some 15yrs of learning. His teacher gave him a picture and told him that now he could open a school if he chose or he could stay and teach as a senior intructor. There were never any belts exchanged.
Tai Chi also works quite a bit on the forms. I have seen a master Tai Chi intstructor get in a fight twice. I do not ever want to fight a tai chi master..ever. They work on their form for 10yrs or more before they really get into the fighting aspect of it. (the ones I saw did anyway) and there was no conversation in class. I asked why this was so and the teacher said we perfect the teachnique with no mind then make you think when the time comes. Don't get me wrong there are tai chi practioners that teach fighting early but i think that interferes with the perfection of their ultimate teachnique. They are truely a needle wrapped in cotton.

My personal thoughts on forms is that they are nice to allow me to practice on my own but they cannot be the only thing you learn.
Sorry I got a little off track.....I could post a book on this subject but will now stop.
I thouroughly enjoy talking about martial arts. I have been and will continue to train in them for a lifetime. So far it is about 20+yrs with 11 of those years teaching. I much prefer to learn than to teach. I feel like I lose a part of myself when I teach.

Kail, I will be more exact in my explanation if you would prefer but I figured that it would get a little too lengthy for posting on a forum. Look at the other post about the Hung Gar Question if you want some excellent reading material. An informed decision is the best decision in my book. You must try the school out to see if it is right for what you want...the only one who can make that decision is you. It took me almost a year to find my first instructor and it took me two years to talk my Chinese instructor into teaching Americans at all. Neither was hung up on money but they were both very adamant about coming to class on time and you always had to be ready to train.
Hope this all helps in some small way,
Darius

p.s. no hard feeling at all...http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35884 What ever happend to the Yiquan school?

 

[Narrator]

Originally posted by Darius101 My judo instructor told me that only the women in Japan learn the kata in judo. The men Frown on it. They do work on technique though. He also told me that before 1950 only judo had a belt system for Kyu ranks. He found it ammusing that Americans are so hung up on the belt system. My chinese intructor not only had no belt system he just laughed when someone asked him if he was an ornage sash.

Heh, yeah, this is what my dad told me as well. He said he was one below a 'rainbow belt' as a kid and also did training in Japan when he was a sales representative for a company over there.

That's why I refused belts in my karate class. I asked the sensai first if he wouldn't mind and he was ok with it. I went to the kata evaluations for a couple of belts anyway but stopped going 'cause I thought they were a bit of a waste of time (ever tried crowding a hundred people into a 20'x80' room and then asking them to do kata's properly?).

That, and I tended to be better than most green belts and even gave a couple of black belts a run for their money

Not that that was entirely a reflection on the sensai (although, ultimately, it was), he was a good bloke and won plenty of full-contact competition, but I think he was a bit too lenient.

I'd say this is pretty common. I highly doubt most black belts would be up to the standards of the 'old school' types.

 

[Darius101]

Yes Traditional standards are not for todays 'normal' martial artists.

One thing my teacher also was worrired about when he started to teach again was that Americans were 'sue happy' and he needed to get special insurance in case someone got hurt.

In my Wing Chun Class:
We opted to agree to be taught where ever and in whatever technique he felt he wanted to teach in. He taught us in a traditional style. We would spar till we got sick then spar some more. We would get a cut on a hand and he would treat it with herbs and bandaides without a second thought....in the end we trained for hours at a time 4 times a week minimum and could call anytime to train if we felt the need. This was great fun and quite tough. The end result was that we understood what we were doing and how to do it when we needed to. The Technique was second nature to us.
I feel grateful to my teachers for oppertunities like this. When friends of his came to visit us at the Dojo they would ask why we weren't being promoted faster. He would reply that they are not ready yet. Tests were always two hours of constant fighting, throwing, falling and working with someone with at least two years more experience than you. For me that ment fighting and working against my teacher during tests. At the end of a test you knew you took one. Blood, Sweat, and Tears were friends I knew well. You earned your place no doubt.
We could not have done that with the way normal training halls are set up nowadays. 20yrs ago was the tail end of training that way here in America at least in my area.
Budokan training also encompassed many things that to me were unexpected in a martial arts class. True bujinkan teaching means you learn the beauty not just the physical aspects of a martial art. You should learn about the culture, the history and meaning behind what you are doing.
Read Autumn Lightning or Persimmon Wind to see more about this aspect of martial arts.
Also for the more Mystical side of things Dr. Glenn Morris has some great books about training, history and his experience in Martial Arts.
Later,
Darius

 

[takyris]

Darius,

Sounds like you had a tough school. What does concern me, though, is this "Train until you're sick" mindset. That's like saying "go to the gym and lift weights until you pull a muscle and physically can't lift anymore. Then, the next day, take some advil and do it again. You'll get strong really fast."

Um, maybe. OR you'll give yourself a permanent injury. OR you'll give yourself a temporary injury that makes it impossible to train for awhile. OR you'll give yourself a minor injury that makes you unconsciously change your movements to favor it, forcing you to do more work when you're feeling better to get rid of those problems.

Training must take into account the culture of the trainees. Now, my Kenpo school -- and I know that you don't respect Kenpo, but that's what I study, so deal with it -- gives a good workout. Considering that an individual class lasts only an hour, they create one of the most effective workouts I've ever seen, getting people exhausted but doing so in a safe manner. This class succeeds in absolutely whooping the athletes who come in, and ALSO gives a good workout to the stay-at-home moms, deskbound employees, couch potatoes, and other folks who weren't much used to exercise. At the end of the class, everyone is exhausted, but I have rarely seen any injury worse than being stiff or pulling a muscle. The teachers are good enough observers to know when people are reaching their limits, and they always ensure that things stay safe.

And those are the group classes. In the private lessons, sometimes I get a huge workout, heavier than any group class, and sometimes I barely even sweat. It all depends on what my teacher wants me to learn, and what that requires. If I'm learning a new kata, I ain't sweating much. If I'm running through stuff for test prep, I'll be sweating buckets.

I bring this up not to defend my school, but to set up more realistic expectations for someone looking for a school. There's a good chance that the place you find WON'T insist on people vomiting each lesson, won't work people with edged weapons until they accidentally cut themselves, and won't give people bloody noses in its tests. And just because it isn't the Marine Corps Crucible doesn't mean it's a bad school. Martial arts threads have a long history of getting into ego measurement and inflated stories about the number of ninjas you have to kill in tests or the number of knuckle pushups you have to do and all that. If you're going to politely pity the schools that don't make people vomit or bleed on a regular basis, I'm going to politely pity a school that can't teach except by doing so.

-Tacky

 

[Darius101]

Full out sparring happened only rarely and I guess I was a little too graphic on that point.
I respect some people that train in Kenpo and have worked out with Jeff Speakman way back in the late 80's before he left for hollywood. The man had good technique was quite a good guy to fight against.
Read the entire post not just parts of it....I stated that technique is not what Budo is about entirely.
I am posting it here for you to read again:

Budokan training also encompassed many things that to me were unexpected in a martial arts class. True bujinkan teaching means you learn the beauty not just the physical aspects of a martial art. You should learn about the culture, the history and meaning behind what you are doing .
Read Autumn Lightning or Persimmon Wind to see more about this aspect of martial arts.
Also for the more Mystical side of things Dr. Glenn Morris has some great books about training, history and his experience in Martial Arts.

To be considered a martial artist you must learn more than mere Technique...you must go beyond yourself...Technique means nothing if there is nothing behind it.
Sorry for any misunderstanding I really should learn to quit posting again,
Darius

P.S. Read the Book of Five Rings for Musashi's thoughts about training. It might even surprise you.

 

[takyris]

Darius,

I should apologize -- I wasn't saying that everything you said was wrong. I was more concerned that a lot of the stuff you said could be taken out of context.

Read the Book of Five Rings and thought it was interesting. I ought to read it again, though -- it's been quite a few years.

Heck, I also read "The Art of War", but at the time, I was reading it for dating advice.

-Tacky