[OT] Yet another martial arts help thread.....so, please help!!

[Darius101]

Pat you completly missed the point all together and showed you have no experience with an actual fight.
Sorry if I misunderstand your post but this is not for taking pot shots at anybody and we are keeping it civil here.

Good posts guys keep up the good work.
Darius

 

[takyris]

You are right. It's just like Steven Segal movies, you'll square off with all 4 opponents, one will signal he is about to engage you by giving his intentions away with an over dramatic facial expression or animal like scream. Whilst you deal with said opponent, his comrades will dance around you in a threatening fashion, waiting for you to dispose of the first attacker.

At my school, one of our requirements around brown belt is the creation of a Mass Attack kata. We have to imagine ourselves surrounded by progressively more people (4 at one belt, 6 at the next, then 8, and eventually 10) and come up with a scenario that would get us out of there. The rules of the kata are that we can't use the same strike twice, we can't do more than three strikes on a single opponent, we have to stay in a small space (pretty much one step), and we have to be able to do the kata in less than five seconds (at least, for the 4 man version). The first rule is just to make us think and come up with different ideas. The second rule is to stop us from being stupid and spending five seconds hitting a guy. The third rule is to simulate being surrounded or stuffed -- we learn about dancing out of a group in other techniques. The fourth rule is to keep us honest -- if you're taking ten seconds to take them out from the time you start moving, you're being way too generous with what they're going to be doing to you.

For a four-man mass attack, it might end up being something like this (off top of head):

Left elbow and right four-finger eye strike to the guy on my left -- the elbow hits the throat, and the eye strike hits the eys. Assume that for purposes of the kata, he's out.

Pivot to the right, firing a left jab to the face of the guy who was in front of me and a right chop to the guy who was behind me -- I'm now facing the guy who was on my right, and I use the momentum of the pivot not only to power these strikes, but to throw a left snap kick to the groin.

The guy on my right is bent over from the kick to the groin -- grab the hair, right chop to his neck as I shove him toward the guy who was in front of me -- this buys me a bit of time with that guy, and I throw a rear kick at the guy who was behind me. I'm assuming that for purposes of the kata, the guy I chopped at the neck (or jaw) is out, and the guy I chopped and then kicked is also out. Not unconscious or anything -- just "out of the fight" enough for me to run away.

Finally, as the guy who was in front of me recovers, I throw a left backhand wipe that won't hurt a ton but snaps his head to one side, followed by a right hammerstrike that hits about where the jawline reaches the ear. He's out. Kata's over.

That took a lot longer to explain than it did to do it in the air, and my terminology might be confusing. In the air, I think it took about four seconds. Essentially, creating the kata teaches us the following:

* The duh-worthy fact that if you're fighting more than one opponent, you really need to strike first, and keep striking.
* The similarly duh-worthy fact that if you're fighting more than one opponent, you can't spend too much time on anyone -- you need to hit with kill shots, and quickly, or you need to do what Musashi talks about in the book of Five Rings -- striking opponents like fish on a line, hitting them all quickly and never focusing for too long on one person.
* The notion of using people in a fight to get in each other's way -- more obvious with more people, but I didn't wanna make a 10-man attack just for this post. Throwing a dumb attacker into a smart attacker can buy you the extra second you need to take out a lazy attacker.
* The importance of using your momentum to get multiple strikes off while you keep moving.

For anything past four guys, you really have to start guessing -- with six guys, you can take out maybe three of them before the other guys get to punch at you, so you have to keep moving, and in the kata you have the luxury of deciding who's going to attack you next (although my teachers will get on us if we "forget" about someone, leaving ourselves open to them for too long). It's by no means perfect, and isn't meant to teach everything, but it's a great way to start feeling the chaos of a bunch of people around you.

For a look at a much-better choreographed Four-Man Mass Attack, look at "The Perfect Weapon" -- the scene where the hero is getting mugged.

-Tacky

 

[Lannon]

Another fighting example

If four men are around you and you are alone you either give up and take what happens or fight to survive and take what happens. Just because there are 4 men trying to do you harm does not mean they can all hit you at the same time. There is a gang/pak mentality there where one of them is the leader. If you take out the leader quickly then most of the time the rest will give up. I guess it depends how deperate they are actually. I do not advocate fighting but I do know how to do it when the time comes. I wrote those illustrations earlier to make a point sorry you missed it.

Regards,
Darius

Well interestingly you have replied to my comment by describing me in a fight. What you dont seem to understand is that I have not put myself in a position to even get into physical violence. All these martial arts people are supposed to be able to recognize situations like these in the first place right? If that is the case why have I been more successful avoiding violence then most martial arts practioners. You have decided to invite violence into your life and now you have to live with the consequences.

Martial Arts has very little worth Darius. What benefits it provides I can find elsewhere in a non violent fashion.

Aaron

 

[Lannon]

Re: Re: Why is it...

So you didn't read the part where I said that taking Kenpo made me realize how fundamentally chaotic any fight is going to be, as well as the damage that I could do, and caused me to walk away from or avoid most fights? There've been situations where I knew that if I hadn't taken Kenpo, I'd have been scared or angry enough to get into a fight. My training got me to walk away, because I don't have my ego wrapped around beating people up.

-Tacky

How did your training allow you to get into those situations in the first place? Answer that as honestly as you can and dont tell me the answer.

 

[Lannon]

Seemed like the obvious attack?

Like pretending to be someone you are not with dice?

I actually only have RPG sessions every three months.

 

[takyris]

Lannon, you're 23, and you've been in one fight. Darius has been practicing for more than 20 years, making him, in all likelihood, older than you. He's been in TWO. I fail to see how this proves that martial artists are prone to violence.

You're ignoring several of my posts, in which I described how my martial arts training gave me the awareness and self-confidence necessary to avoid or walk away from potential fights.

So aside from your unfounded and uncivil blanket accusations, do you have anything to say?

-Tacky

EDIT: Ah, you're doing posts one by one. As to your question... huh? Um, some friends and I were showing each other karate moves in the dorm on a Friday night when a drunk guy came in and tried to train with us -- he really just wanted to fight. I told him he was drunk and walked away. Perhaps this is your evidence that my violent lifestyle has undone me. The other times that a fight has been possible were when I was walking through the city with my wife and saw folks appraising me. I didn't walk like a victim and I didn't walk blind around corners and I didn't do anything stupid to salve my ego as I walked away from them -- and as a result, my wife and I were given a wide berth. Given that I was was walking back to the train after watching a musical, I can safely say that martial arts had very little to do with those situations.

 

[Lannon]

hmmm

Lannon, you're 23, and you've been in one fight. Darius has been practicing for more than 20 years, making him, in all likelihood, older than you. He's been in TWO. I fail to see how this proves that martial artists are prone to violence.

You're ignoring several of my posts, in which I described how my martial arts training gave me the awareness and self-confidence necessary to avoid or walk away from potential fights.

So aside from your unfounded and uncivil blanket accusations, do you have anything to say?

-Tacky

Darius has *described* two fights. Im reluctant to say how many either of you have actually been in.

If your martial arts training has helped you walk away from fights etc. and I can walk away from fights without having wasted hours of my time at some *dojo* then why practice martial arts? I didnt need a special class to teach me how to walk away from a hostile environment and I dont think you do either. You can get the same benefit apparently from any number of nonviolent activities.

Aaron

 

[takyris]

Because someday there's going to be a fight that I can't walk away from. Maybe it'll be a group that just flat-out attacks me. Maybe they'll be threatening my wife and not allowing us to leave. Who knows? What I do know is that I have an option available to me.

Plus, I can fall in the middle of a parking lot without hurting myself and turn on light switches with kicks while carrying groceries in both hands. I also get plenty of exercise and have become a better writer and a better friend from learning lessons at my school.

I'm not saying that you can't learn the same lessons somewhere else -- but that's where I learned them.

What I have trouble understanding is why you'd come to a martial arts thread solely for the purpose of attacking martial artists. I don't know why you've got such a chip on your shoulder, but you're being rude. What's worse, you're spreading disinformation by making blanket statements about a subject with which you are unfamiliar. I would ask that you either be polite, or that you be elsewhere.

-Tacky

 

[(contact)]

Re: hmmm

Darius has *described* two fights. Im reluctant to say how many either of you have actually been in.

If your martial arts training has helped you walk away from fights etc. and I can walk away from fights without having wasted hours of my time at some *dojo* then why practice martial arts? I didnt need a special class to teach me how to walk away from a hostile environment and I dont think you do either. You can get the same benefit apparently from any number of nonviolent activities.

Aaron

You're funny, dude. You're willing to define the "purpose" of something you don't have any experience with, then speak disrespectfully about it.

"wasted hours of time"? Heh.

Fighting and street fighting are two legitimate reasons to study martial arts, but in my earlier posts, I mentioned that they were not the primary ones.

Martial practice leads to an increased sense of well-being, and the practicioner is more useful to friends, family and community. Most practicioners can tell you that they have witnessed or experienced the following:

- The ability to process and overcome negative patterns and habits resulting from prior emotional trauma.

- The ability to remain calm in otherwise stressful everyday life situations, allowing the practicioner to apply positive core values in a practical way.

-The ability to become comfortable with the 'adrenaline spike' that results from trauma-- this will help you whether you are trying to lend assistance to an accident victim, put out a fire, or stop a little kid from running into the street.

- Physical health. Say no more. Conditioning, conditioning, conditioning.

- Increased personal confidence. Confidence that pays off in the realm of romance, home life and career.

These are all things that I can attest to, and have personally experienced. Frankly, martial training can be a real pain in the butt sometimes. If there was an easier way to get these benefits, I'd be all over it, so if you find one, let me know.

 

[(contact)]

I started training Hung Gar, and I really liked lit. It had punches, it had kicks, it had chin-na

Also, if the Jiujitsu you mentioned is Japaneese, most of your Hung-Gar Chin-Na curriculum will be taught there. Jiujitsu has quite a bit of grabbing and joint-manipulation.