ToV Other than "It's not made by WotC", what's the elevator pitch for Tales of the Valiant?

Tales of the Valiant (Black Flag)
2024 and ToV were worked on over the same year, and came out at the same time, both being revisions of 2014. In many ways ToV is the more conservative rework of the two; one primary aim was to maintain compatibility with hundreds of Kobold Press books and adventures written for the 5e ruleset. Here are the major differences I see:
1) Character Creation: Stats
2014 granted 3 extra stat points to each character based on their race, and Monsters of the Multiverse made those points "free choice" no matter what race you chose, decoupling them from that decision. 2024 linked those three points to background instead, undoing the MotM free choice.
ToV starts with a higher stat baseline and doesn't award any extra points during character creation.
Verdict: ToV, or 2014 with the MotM revision, is better than 2024, or than 2014 without that revision.

2) Character Creation: Feats/Talents: 2024 grants an Origin feat, which is defined by your background choice. If a certain feat is key to your character concept you must take the background that grants it. All monks are sailors now.
ToV grants a choice of three Talents, based on your background choice. Their Talent design is more balanced; there aren't must-haves and stinkers as D&D has, so usually one of those will work well with your character.
With later feat acquisition: 2024 feats come with +1 to a specified stat, sometimes a choice of 2. ToV Talents come with +1 to any stat. Much more useful, as sometimes you want a feat that plays off your already strong stat but also want to shore up a weaker stat.
Verdict: ToV allows more freedom to build the character you envision.

3) Character Creation: Species/ Lineage and Heritage: ToV is miles ahead of 2024 on this one. Mixing and matching a lineage with a heritage, adding a class, then a background with a choice of three talents, all together gives amazing customization at level 1.
Verdict: ToV can make two level 1 dwarf fighters feel and play very differently. 2024 still suffers from characters that must fit a mold if they want to be effective.

4) Spell Lists: 2024, like 2014, has a spell list for every spellcasting class. ToV has four spell lists. Your class is an Arcane, Divine, Primordial (nature) or Wyrd (just warlocks for now, witches coming soon) caster and you have access to all of that list. I'm undecided about this. Giving bards fireballs feels like it reduces class identity, but giving paladins the rest of the cleric list feels amazing.
Verdict: undecided

5) Rituals: in 2024, as 2014, some spells can be cast as rituals, trading longer spell time for not using a spell slot. Since these are normally not combat spells and combat is 90% of the game, they are rarely chosen. In ToV, spellcasting classes get cantrips, (leveled) spells, and rituals chosen separately, so taking a ritual doesn't diminish your combat choices. Ritual spells are always and only cast as rituals, and non-ritual spells never are. This means these flavorful options get used more, which in turn can steer the game toward strategic and roleplaying use of magic rather than always tactical considerations.
Verdict: a great innovation from ToV

6) Luck vs Heroic Inspiration. Enough other posters have talked about this one.
Verdict: Luck is so good, and easy to import into your D&D game, that you should steal it even if you don't plan to play ToV.

7) Weapon Mastery/ Weapon Options: Both design teams sought a way to jazz up martial play. ToV came closer, but neither is quite right. 2024: Only certain classes get Weapon Mastery. Inexplicably, every day they can forget their years of spear training and suddenly acquire years of bow training, then switch back the next day. Mastery effects are riders added to every hit with the weapon, making your attacks more powerful but not providing any new decision space. You're still just attacking, every round, but now it does more. "Vex" is overpowered and trivializes other abilities, because Advantage is the only tool in the box and Vex means you pretty much always have it.
ToV: Everyone can use Weapon Options. Choosing to use one means not doing any damage that turn, so the effect must be strong. Unfortunately, ToV felt the effect was too strong, so they added a saving throw requirement on top of needing to hit. This meant that Weapon Options usually fail. Aside from that, they are particularly useful if you don't expect to do much damage anyway - you're fighting wererats and your weapon isn't silver or magical, or you're usually a caster and the target has resistance to your damaging cantrip; you can still contribute with a trip, push or disarm.

My solution has been to houserule away the saving throws for the ToV weapon options.
Verdict: Power players will prefer 2024. People who enjoy making meaningful decisions will prefer ToV if they apply my fix; otherwise they'll also prefer 2024.

8. Minor rule changes: In ToV, anyone who can read can use any scroll, of any level, with no rolls required. GMs will want to be careful with this; if your fourth level characters get rich enough they'll be buying Time Stop scrolls if you let them.
In 2024, potions are officially a bonus action. Lots of tables were treating them that way anyway. ToV resisted that call.
Many spells were revised, more in 2024 than in ToV.
Verdict: mixed. These are easy for a GM to decide yes or no on individually.

9. Classes: Way too much to pick apart here. 2024 has better barbarians and monks, nerfed paladins and did rangers no favors. ToV has the first really good ranger ever. The ToV Mechanist feels much more like an artificer than the D&D Artificer does.
Verdict: mixed

The Future: ToV is putting out new content at a feverish pace; we already have dozens of new lineages, heritages, classes and subclasses from the Campaign Builder books, the new Margreve book, the just-released Book of Blades, the Labyrinth setting, and currently in kickstarter, the Northlands and Player's Guide 2. While Players Guide was a rewrite of content we were already familiar with, now we're seeing more divergence between the two games.

Compatibility: Yes, you CAN run D&D and ToV characters in the same party, in an adventure that you run with either ruleset or a blend of the two. I have several tables running like this and they work just fine.
 

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I use Kobold Press's Midgard material in my Level Up games. Its very easy to convert, if conversion is even necessary.
Agreed and in fact the very 1st Midgard campaign I ran was an adaptation of the 3.5/PF1 content to True20. I've also run the setting with 13th Age and Dragon/Fantasy AGE, which was easy due to Kobold publishing Midgard Bestiaries for those editions. The only real lifting for those and it was light lifting, was substituting NPCs and homebrewing or reskinning the odd monster if it wasn't covered in the Bestiary.

I was thinking more of the Midgard Players Guide for PF1 and the Midgard Player's Handbook for 5e. Those were quality publications that added the missing races and some nice, thematic archetypes and spells for PF1 and backgrounds, subclasses and spells for 5e. While a Midgard handbook isn't out yet for ToV, I expect there to eventually be one. For me, embracing the primary focus ruleset is more of something for my players, as I've always had a print copy of the Midgard guide or handbook at my table for them to use.
 

I don't really have much to add after all the great posts explaining the differences. I'll say that as a 5E game, IMHO, ToV is more fun to play AND run than 2014 or 2024. For me, it's that sweet spot between familiar and fresh; the statblocks are better optimized for use, and each one is more interesting. Player option flexibility is fantastic and far above WotC's offerings. That's mostly a subjective take, of course, the other posters have been far more objective.

I appreciate it so much that I not only pivoted my tables to ToV as the base ruleset (mixing in 2024 for players who want those options, or just can't let go of D&D Beyond), but I also pivoted my small-time publishing to supporting it as the primary system for which my content is designed.

And holy moly, have the Kobolds been hard at work putting out more and more content without really sacrificing quality. It's an impressive feat. I gotta wonder sometimes if they ever sleep.

edit: I put together a document of the ToV classes and subclasses published to date and which books to find them in. They really have been busy ;)

 
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I haven't "run ToV," I've only used a number of elements from it. I was so impressed with the ToV GMG I did a whole commentary read-through/skim thread somewhere on the site. Where the 5e24 DMG is definitely for introing new GMs, the ToV GMG is amazing if you're already a proficient DM. And I think folk have already spoken well on the bestiary.
 

I bought the Starter Set - and it is fine, without being amazing. And on the expensive side.
I have heard many opinions on the core game - ranging from an anemic D&D copy to a more fun version.

The GMG, however, seems to get high praise from almost everyone who has read it. I even think @SlyFlourish ranked it as the #1 GM-book on his podcast episode where he compared books from the various 5e versions (i.e., ToV, 5e2014, 5e2024, and 5eLU).

I do think though that now after the dust has settled on the OGL-fiasco, and Daggerheart and Draw Steel has a lot of attention, it seems ToV are losing some of the spot light. Also there is no ToV on Roll20.

On the other hand Kobold Press is putting out more stuff it seems. Player's Guide 2 is coming. So is a new Book of Blades with many martial options. And that might drive som interest.

I really like Kobold Press, so I hope they' find success.
 

Anything is better than WotC's version of that particular thing, but ToV is probably the smallest change of the non-WotC options. But yes, you are right, it is better than WotC's take. If 'moving out of things of being because you were born an elf' is your driver, you want A5E, which dials that up to 11 by completely separating heritage and culture.
I completely disagree with the spirit of your comment but vigorously defend your right to an opinion.
 

I bought the Starter Set - and it is fine, without being amazing. And on the expensive side.
I have heard many opinions on the core game - ranging from an anemic D&D copy to a more fun version.

The GMG, however, seems to get high praise from almost everyone who has read it. I even think @SlyFlourish ranked it as the #1 GM-book on his podcast episode where he compared books from the various 5e versions (i.e., ToV, 5e2014, 5e2024, and 5eLU).

I do think though that now after the dust has settled on the OGL-fiasco, and Daggerheart and Draw Steel has a lot of attention, it seems ToV are losing some of the spot light. Also there is no ToV on Roll20.

On the other hand Kobold Press is putting out more stuff it seems. Player's Guide 2 is coming. So is a new Book of Blades with many martial options. And that might drive som interest.

I really like Kobold Press, so I hope they' find success.
In fairness, I wrote parts of the TOV GMG.

They also have the Monster Vault 2 which just came out and has a bunch of other cool stuff in it beyond just monsters. I wrote some of that too, including an expansion on Doom points.
 


Now there's an RPG I'm missing in my life.

pc doom GIF
 

I haven't bought, played, or more than thumbed through a bookstore copy of Tales of the Valiant, but to me the issue is that it seems like it's mostly just 5e with the non-SRD elements getting their serial numbers filed off and some very small and conservative improvements. And, to be clear, that would exactly make it my jam if I didn't already have the 5e materials and if I had a group of people wanting to buy and play a barely different version of 5e which is obscure to anyone not hyper-plugged-in to the hobby. But at this juncture it is just so much easier to pitch people playing the 2014 5e they already own, or for me to bend a little and be a little unhappy playing 2024 D&D.

I really appreciate that this game exists, but I suspect its real heyday will come if it keeps chugging along after WotC eventually either iterates the 5e system to be unrecognizeable or forsakes it entirely, or just figures out new and exciting ways to alienate their customer base.
 

I haven't bought, played, or more than thumbed through a bookstore copy of Tales of the Valiant, but to me the issue is that it seems like it's mostly just 5e with the non-SRD elements getting their serial numbers filed off and some very small and conservative improvements. And, to be clear, that would exactly make it my jam if I didn't already have the 5e materials and if I had a group of people wanting to buy and play a barely different version of 5e which is obscure to anyone not hyper-plugged-in to the hobby. But at this juncture it is just so much easier to pitch people playing the 2014 5e they already own, or for me to bend a little and be a little unhappy playing 2024 D&D.

I really appreciate that this game exists, but I suspect its real heyday will come if it keeps chugging along after WotC eventually either iterates the 5e system to be unrecognizeable or forsakes it entirely, or just figures out new and exciting ways to alienate their customer base.
I get that, I saw enough potential in the original ToV Players Guide and Monster Vault books to switch over, but if all you looked at was those books quickly in a book store and then compared it to the already existing 5E options out there for 2014 based games I can totally see how you'd arrive at that conclusion.

To be fair, if the kobolds hadn't been releasing as much content as they have since launch, and all we were doing was converting 2014 and 2024 material using the conversion guide still, I probably would've just taken the Luck system and just gone back to base 2014 5E or go to 2024 5E.

However, the game is quickly becoming its own thing, yet with the same common ancestor as 2024 5e and other 5E-based systems. I'm here for it.
 

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