Overpowered characters - how to deal with them?

[Hammerforge]

So, let's look at what the Vow of Poverty gives him:

• +8 exalted bonus to AC. This is pretty much the equivalent of an armor bonus. Worth 64,000 gp (as bracers of armor)
• Endure elements. Basically a replacement for adequate clothing.
• +2 enhancement bonus on attacks. Equivalent of an amulet of mighty fists +2, or 24,000 (though the Rules of the Game articles have stated that the price of the amulet includes a 50% "wrong slot" surcharge, so this cost should really be more like 16k).
• No need to eat or drink. Replaces buying food.
• +2 deflection bonus to AC. Same as a ring of protection +2, worth 8,000 gp.
• Resistance +2 bonus to saves. Equal to a cloak of resistance +2, 4,000 gp.
• +4 to one stat and +2 to another. Equivalent of one +4 stat item and one +2 stat item. Worth 16,000 + 4,000 = 20,000.
• Natural armor +1. Amulet of natural armor +1 costs 2,000 gp.
• Mind shielding. A ring of mind shielding is worth 8,000 gp.
• DR 5/magic. This is a little harder to price, since there aren't any items that give straight DR X/magic. The closest comparison is to a suit of armor of invulnerability , which has a +3 bonus cost. This costs at least 16,000 gp, minus the cost for the base +1 bonus for the armor itself. So, say 15,000 gp. (Some would argue that this should be added to the Exalted AC bonus. In that case, you should also give the base +4 bonus free, which seems to be the cutoff for "easy" AC - chain shirt, mage armor, and the like, so this plus the Exalted bonus should cost the equivalent of +7 armor, or 49,000 gp).
• No need to breathe. Equivalent of a necklace of adaption, worth 9,000 gp.
• Resistance 5 to all elements. No real equivalent, but a minor ring of resistance to one element costs 12,000. Halve that, and multiply by 5 for all the elements, and you get 30,000 gp. This is probably overpriced, but let's use that.

Total value: 184,000 gp. A 13th level character should have 110,000 gp in gear, so it might look like a bit much. However, the character spent two feats on this, and have given up the ability to use potions and the ability to use money to solve problems, plus he has to act super-good all the time.

I would never allow this in my campaign unless I tweaked it considerably. It's just ridiculously powerful.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I would never allow this in my campaign unless I tweaked it considerably. It's just ridiculously powerful.

Keep in mind that he can't do basic things. Fying, using potions, using specific metals to overcome DR, etc. It is highly inflexible. Especially in a Planescape game.

 

[BroccoliRage]

im not as familiar with 3e rules, however i have had many over powered characters join my game. ill show you a secret if you dont mind....there, let me dust off my mental library...

okay. basically you run into green players who have looked at the books and have an idea for playing something insanely powerful because they arent interested in ROLEPLAYING, but they are interested in "ROLL" playing. they just want to give their character every advantage available (which is often the case with people who like to multiclass) and they dont stop to think that their character is supposed to be an actual person, not just superhuman collections of marks on paper. also people watch too much dragon ball z, but thats unrelated. often players try to dominate the game through tactics like that. basically i place reasonable restrictions. this monk, does he serve a god/philosophy that actually rakes in a good amount of cash? does he come from a rich family? does he have clothes unbefitting someone who is undergoing such a strict form of self denial as poverty? do the townsfolk tend to wrinkle their nose at him and refuse hims service because hes too damn poor to afford a bath? try to shepherd him into breaking the vow. if that doesnt work....wel in ANY edition D&D the DM has final say....or just kill the character in a way that isnt too convenient...remember, monks dont check for traps...at least not in 1e...maybe his monastary will talk him out of it...

take the proficiency or feat or whatever its called away from him in one of these ways.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

do the townsfolk tend to wrinkle their nose at him and refuse hims service because hes too damn poor to afford a bath?

Rivers are free.

And the townsfolk probably smell just as bad, if not worse.

And, to top it off, he wouldn't be requesting services from them to begin with. At most, he needs a warm, dry place to sleep, and it's amazing how an innkeeper might let someone shovel hay and feed for horses in exchange for sleeping in a hayloft. Heck, with his Resistance to Cold, he just needs a place out of the rain and wind, and that's comparatively easy to find.

Brad

 

[BroccoliRage]

Rivers are free.

And the townsfolk probably smell just as bad, if not worse.

And, to top it off, he wouldn't be requesting services from them to begin with. At most, he needs a warm, dry place to sleep, and it's amazing how an innkeeper might let someone shovel hay and feed for horses in exchange for sleeping in a hayloft. Heck, with his Resistance to Cold, he just needs a place out of the rain and wind, and that's comparatively easy to find.

Brad

myabe they do smell bad but if hes thirteenth level and a monk hes probably not hanging out in the lower quarter brothel. the resistance to cold must be a 3e thing. the other brothers may find him not as agreeable or perhaps see him as a showoff and begin to treat him negatively, claiming his vow is not pure faith but a way to kiss god or the abbot's or whoever's ass.

the point was missed anyhow. i was saying, shepherd him in that direction so you dont have to be that petty DM who just takes it away like ive seen so many power hungry jerks do over a simple game. more bees are caught with honey than vinegar.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

I would never allow this in my campaign unless I tweaked it considerably. It's just ridiculously powerful.

It's powerful, but not ridiculously powerful.

The benefits of the feat are basically designed to give you innate magic items to make up for the fact you are now limited to walking stick & a Gunny Sack.

If you use the standard Treasure/Wealth Guidelines a VoP Character usually winds up worse off, as he gets no say it what is 'magic' doo-dads too compared to what other characters get for magic items (unless you a DM who relies entirely on random rolls, meaning the Fightrer with all his feats wrapped up in Spiked Chain has a chance in Baator of ever getting a magic spiked chain).

Now, a lot of a Monk's abilities are based on the fact he can't use a lot of types of magic items to begin with. His monk abilites are to make up for the 'No magic for you!"

Thus, VoP, plus Monk Abilities is sort of a 2-for one sale.

But, still, if you make him live up to the BoED VoP restrictions it shouldn't be too bad.

Also, Planescape should be tearing him a new one without magic resources. Unless he's sponging off the Casters spells, Planar Traits ought to be smacking him around (esp Chaos planes).

VoP & Monk CAN become Power-Gamey, you have to really watch it & enforce the Vow's Restrictions.

 

[Imperialus]

one thing you could to to equalize the power level is the next time the PC's wrap up a significant plot have the following conversation:

King: In recognition to your service to the crown I am granting you each a powerful magic item. Sir Paladin, I give you this mighty sword and shield so that you may smite those before you.
Paladin: Thank you Sire
King: Arch Magi, I grant you this staff which allows you to throw flaming balls to incinerate those before you
Mage: Thank you Sire
King: Priest of "Diety" I grant you this simple orb that allows you to commune directly with your god at will (to aid in smiting those before you)
Cleric: Thank you Sire
King: Stealthy servent of the crown, I grant you these boots that will allow you to walk silently preventing those before you from smiting you.
Rogue: *pauses from stuffing silverware in a bag* Thank you Sire.
King: Poor monk... I grant you 500 gold peices to be donated to a charity of your choosing.
Monk: Errr... uhhh thank you... Sire?

Edit: Please note that you can and should substitute magic items the players might find useful and probably lower the cheese factor a bit.

 

[BroccoliRage]

oh man...i can relate with that....

 

[Banshee16]

The first question - Is he RPing the VoP properly? I'll assume so, given a few answers you've put here.

The Second question - Is there a reason any of the energy drain levels have not been restored to the other characters? There are spells that will do this.

The third question - Does he work as a team player or does he just do everything on his own?

The 3rd question is the most important. Does he work to help setup the fighters for a better attack with his trips? Does he look to rescue his fellow party members when they are in trouble? Does he do what the party wants most of the time or what he wants?

If he works with the party, even if he outshines them for a time, the party is what succeeded, not just him. He can work to help make others look good, and as an exhaulted character, probably shouldn't be looking for the glory, but the way.

I think the big issue is that with everyone else being lower level than him, it augments the problem further. If everyone was 13th or 14th, with about the right gear mix, they'd be up there with him in effectiveness. But, as stated before, he's a generalis, so while he won't be great at many things, he's good in almost all of them.

The only person in the party that suffered actual level drains was the halfling fighter. He used to be lvl 11, but in an ambush by a drow vampire fighter and his girlfriend, a succubus sorcerer, the vampire dominated the halfling, levitated to the ceiling of the cavern with him, and inflicted 10 negative levels on him, while the succubus dealt with the other PCs. This is an instance where the monk's lack of ability to fly etc. really limited him. The wizard and druid were occupied trying to defeat the sorcerer, the half-celestial was slain by a Phantasmal Killer the sorcerer cast, and the cleric was unable to turn the vampire, but did eventually bring him down with searing light spells and other divine magic....just in time to keep a 10th negative level from being inflicted. The cleric in the party, the only one with restoration spells had one restoration spell memorized at the time, and used it. The halfling passed 24 hours from being drained while the party was resting to get more restoration spells for him, and then failed three of the saves to remove negative levels, and suffered permanent level loss.

The other level losses are due to reincarnation effects used by the druid to bring party members back.

The monk acts somewhat as a team player. But he expects everyone to back him up, yet at the same time jumps in to dominate fights. I'm wondering if the situation is exacerbated *because* there is no high-level fighter in the group. Maybe a fighter would overshadow the monk. The halfling, due to his size, and the fact that he uses dual smallswords (similar to shortswords) isn't exactly the combat-death dealer. He's good, but lower STR and small size and small weapons contribute to a lower damage output.

He has hade more difficulty in places like Tenebrous' fortress on the Negative Material Plane where there was no gravity. It was a bit like fighting in 0 gravity, and the spellcasters had definite advantages.

I've e-mailed my players, and am going to have them send me summaries of what equipment they have, and then figure out the recommended worth based on level. If it's off, I'll use the rewards at the end of this adventure to help correct the discrepancy.

I'm not entirely comfortable with that solution....one of the things I liked with 2nd Ed. is that magic items were much rarer. Now it seems like every character out there is dripping with bling bling. But if the levels are low, that would cause a problem with a character (ie. the monk) whose abilities are supposedly balanced against each other party in the group having X many gp of items.

Banshee

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Human druid 14
Human ranger/cleric/windwalker 10
Half-celestial ranger/sorcrerer/sensate 11
Halfling fighter 8 (he's lost several levels permanently to level drain)
Elf wizard 11
Human bard 11
Dwarf monk 13

The spread of levels is a little uneven....due to raise dead/reincarnation penalties etc. The elf and halfling in particular have been reincarnated I think 3 times each.

Well, for starters, he's the second highest level character in the group. You might expect him to perform, oh let's say, about two levels higher than everyone except the druid. If you had a 13th level wizard in the group, you'd expect him to do everything the 11th level wizard can do and then some. If you had a 13th level fighter in the group, you'd expect him to cleave through enemies who would decimate the 8th level fighter or the half-celestial. So a big part of the problem character is simply that he's higher level than everyone else.

This is probably exacerbated because, based on the list of characters there, only the halfling fighter obviously fits into a similar role--the others are all mutliclassed or spellcasters and not obviously melee combatants. (Maybe even the halfling isn't one). And while the monk is the second highest level character in the group, the halfling is the lowest level character in the group. To top it off, the halfling is well, a halfling and between their small size and strength penalty, halflings are probably the weakest core choice for a melee fighter.

So, how do you fix that? Increase the other characters' levels or decrease his and the druid's. Getting the halfling a restoration spell to fix those negative levels would be a good start. (With a bit of diamond dust the ranger/cleric/windwalker should be able to manage that). If you could get the halfling up to equal level with the monk, it would be ideal. Other than that, the problem should slowly resolve itself if you use the 3.5 or FRCS experience method that gives lower level characters more experience.

Now, for the rest of the problem. Since you don't seem to know the treasure levels the rest of the group has, that's a good place to start. One of the disadvantages of VoP is that you can't get a customized kit of magic for your character. While a lot of the bonuses are nice, I don't think that a necklace of adaptation, for instance would be the first choice for a lot of characters. But, give the other characters customized items that suit their specialties--a +1 keen spellstoring falchion and boots of speed for a fighter, for instance--and they'll be doing pretty well.