Overpowered characters - how to deal with them?

[wuyanei]

This, of course, is metagaming on the rules/GM's part. When one of our players showed up as a Poverty Dude we said: "Ok, he doesn't get a share of the treasure." The GM pointed out the rule. Our response? "Why?" He still hasn't come up with a good answer. (I do not consider the offical reason to be a good one. I consider it metagaming on a level that would get any player thrown out of the game. But we have to put up with it...)

Because the VoP is a reward from his god for his exceptional generousity and unselfishness, for spending all his material possessions in aid of others, leaving nothing for himself?

VoP is not disdain of wealth. It is a reward for using all of your hard-earned wealth to the benefit of others. You cannot pull the 'tax break' trick of transfering all of your possessions to a cohort or your allies. If you do so, your god stops giving you the VoP grace.

In your group's case, the VoP monk isn't being particularly beneficial to the vast downtrodden at all -- he just lets the party hold his gold for him, with the understanding that they will be generous with the potions and spells cast to his benefit. That's not very exalted behavior, IMHO.

 

[Staffan]

The Vow of Poverty has resulted in a lvl 13 character with 33 AC (37 against some things like giants) who seems to do incredible damage, but more importantly, never seems to fail a saving throw, has spell resistance, and a bunch of immunities.

So, let's look at what the Vow of Poverty gives him:

• +8 exalted bonus to AC. This is pretty much the equivalent of an armor bonus. Worth 64,000 gp (as bracers of armor)
• Endure elements. Basically a replacement for adequate clothing.
• +2 enhancement bonus on attacks. Equivalent of an amulet of mighty fists +2, or 24,000 (though the Rules of the Game articles have stated that the price of the amulet includes a 50% "wrong slot" surcharge, so this cost should really be more like 16k).
• No need to eat or drink. Replaces buying food.
• +2 deflection bonus to AC. Same as a ring of protection +2, worth 8,000 gp.
• Resistance +2 bonus to saves. Equal to a cloak of resistance +2, 4,000 gp.
• +4 to one stat and +2 to another. Equivalent of one +4 stat item and one +2 stat item. Worth 16,000 + 4,000 = 20,000.
• Natural armor +1. Amulet of natural armor +1 costs 2,000 gp.
• Mind shielding. A ring of mind shielding is worth 8,000 gp.
• DR 5/magic. This is a little harder to price, since there aren't any items that give straight DR X/magic. The closest comparison is to a suit of armor of invulnerability , which has a +3 bonus cost. This costs at least 16,000 gp, minus the cost for the base +1 bonus for the armor itself. So, say 15,000 gp. (Some would argue that this should be added to the Exalted AC bonus. In that case, you should also give the base +4 bonus free, which seems to be the cutoff for "easy" AC - chain shirt, mage armor, and the like, so this plus the Exalted bonus should cost the equivalent of +7 armor, or 49,000 gp).
• No need to breathe. Equivalent of a necklace of adaption, worth 9,000 gp.
• Resistance 5 to all elements. No real equivalent, but a minor ring of resistance to one element costs 12,000. Halve that, and multiply by 5 for all the elements, and you get 30,000 gp. This is probably overpriced, but let's use that.

Total value: 184,000 gp. A 13th level character should have 110,000 gp in gear, so it might look like a bit much. However, the character spent two feats on this, and have given up the ability to use potions and the ability to use money to solve problems, plus he has to act super-good all the time.

 

[Drowbane]

Looks like a classic case of one guy who is good at making tough characters (Thus shall be referenced as Powergamer) joining a group of people who aren't so hot at making characters (thus shall be referenced as Norms).

Punishing the Powergamer for his nature, but because the Norms are incapable of rising to the challenge is childish. Back in 2e, I was my group's Powergamer. Nobody else had a clue... and half of the group's DMs hated me for it.

That said... wtf is your Wizard and Druid doing that they are not the ones outshining the rest of the party?! At those levels...

Does the party have gear appropriate for thier level? Cause if not... VoP is way too good. VoP can only appear balanced if everybody else has thier toys.

Monks too powerful? Hardly. The ability to avoid saving throws and deal "bleh" damage is nothing compared to the POWER of the Dark Side... err... a high str Barbarian/Fighter going at it with Power attack, a +5 (+3?) Falchion...

You have seen what a competently crafted Bbn/Fi can do right?

Anyways, sorry in advance if this wasn't too helpful. I just hate it when Norms whine and cry because they don't know what they're doing.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Generally, Monks are actually renowned for their ability to be less-than-effective at overcoming obstacles while at the same being very hard to completely put out of comission because of high saves/fast movement/unarmed attacks/etc. It really does seem like your Monk would be at a disadvantage versus high HP/damage opponents like giants. Focus less on harming the monk with attacks(spells with saves especially) and more on forcing him into difficult situations where he has to be proactive.

 

[Bront]

The first question - Is he RPing the VoP properly? I'll assume so, given a few answers you've put here.

The Second question - Is there a reason any of the energy drain levels have not been restored to the other characters? There are spells that will do this.

The third question - Does he work as a team player or does he just do everything on his own?

The 3rd question is the most important. Does he work to help setup the fighters for a better attack with his trips? Does he look to rescue his fellow party members when they are in trouble? Does he do what the party wants most of the time or what he wants?

If he works with the party, even if he outshines them for a time, the party is what succeeded, not just him. He can work to help make others look good, and as an exhaulted character, probably shouldn't be looking for the glory, but the way.

I think the big issue is that with everyone else being lower level than him, it augments the problem further. If everyone was 13th or 14th, with about the right gear mix, they'd be up there with him in effectiveness. But, as stated before, he's a generalis, so while he won't be great at many things, he's good in almost all of them.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

If he started at 13th level, and the other characters grew up from lower levels, he will just by that fact be slightly more effective, and optimized, that a character that grew "organically".

I'm surprised he's being so effective with his attacks -- traditionally monks are very hard to hit or damage, but don't put out much damage themselves -- "flurry of misses". The monk's "Diamond Body" ability is very generous (SR23 at 13th level), but still with the spellcasting opponents he should be facing they should get spells through at least 50% of the time.

 

[Particle_Man]

Kill them and take their stuff!

What stuff? He is a Poverty Dude!

 

[Particle_Man]

I would say you should give out more powerful magic items to the rest of the party. If necessary, give out items that do exactly what all the benefits of the VoP do in the form of ioun stones, one per pc. Then they will all be more powerful than him.

 

[Barak]

Have you talked to the player? It sounds simple, but..

I know that in his position, I wouldn't be having as much fun as you'd think. Being Mr All-Uber isn't that great, really. So he might very well be much more receptive to powering down than you'd think.

 

[Hammerforge]

Losing some of the fun is about it. I know that the campaign was starting to wear on me in any case.....it's been a marathon 7-8 years now, running through most of the core Planescape material, plenty of home grown stuff, the Great Modron March, and now we're two adventures away from finishing Dead Gods. But though it's been awesome I'm just getting tired of it, and need a change, if that makes any sense.

Absolutely. Since your campaign seems to be nearing its end, your solution is obvious: Announce that the campaign will be over in a couple of sessions and you'd like to take a turn at playing for a change or start over fresh with a new campaign. This will not only eliminate Poverty Dude but will also allow you to rethink what you will allow and disallow in the future as a DM.

The monk hasn't been helping, as the dynamics of the group arrived when he joined. The rest of the characters watch as their characters struggle and work together to survive, and he turns around and acts as the main combatant, and just seems to decimate everything. And I'm talking like taking 1-2 rounds to take out higher level humanoid opponents.

I played in a game once where something very similar happened. Another player combed the rulebooks and came up with an insane combination to make a very powerful fighter as well as a psionicist. Well, between those two characters (we were each playing two characters) my two characters were just along for the ride and accomplished very little during the adventure. I left that game session feeling extremely dissatisfied. So I say this to you, both as a player and as a DM: Never allow overpowered characters into the campaign. If you mistakenly allow such a character, you're perfectly within your rights to nix the PC or have the player modify him so he's not as powerful and he's more balanced with the rest of the party. Otherwise his PC will spoil the fun for everyone else in the group.

It doesn't happen all the time....he has trouble with displacer beasts for instance....but in the last game he was caught against a drow cleric of higher level, and the drow used something like 4 harm spells, slay living, destruction, and cause critical wounds against him, and he either passed his saves, or SR rolls failed to penetrate, etc. And the opponent had an attack bonus of something like +8, so the only way he was going to hit was on a roll of 20.

Listen, it's your game. It's your world. You are perfectly within your rights to increase the powers of creatures/opponents beyond what the rulebooks say. So, ultimately it's up to you whether things like this spoil the game. So go ahead and make that drow cleric's spells' DC higher. Give higher attack bonuses to others. Do what it takes to make sure that his opponents are worthy opponents and not just mooks for him to plow through.

That same opponent, against other party members, likely would have killed one of the characters. But the monk fought him to a draw. Some of the others in the group feel like secondary characters in comparison with him.....ie. they're there to heal him up if he does get beaten down, or save him if he gets in over his head.

That alone is all the reason you need to nix his character or create some house-rule to limit his powers. Who says you can't rewrite some of the rules for the VoP?