Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Kalendraf]

Try using ability draining monsters. Start seeing a resurgence in Lesser restoration. A whole flock of stirges is still a threat for PCs of any level.

They tend to buy wands of lesser restoration just for such an emergency.

Also, Silence is a second level spell. I think this is one of the better spells (many wouls still take it as a 3rd level IMO).

I certainly agree this is a great spell. However, my Greyhawk campaign is using Liberation of Geoff as it's campaign theme, and there aren't many casters that they face. Loads of giants and humanoids. My other campaign's cleric does usually memorize a silence for any casters they might encounter.

Even nerfed, Hold person is still a very good option (for clerics) at Lev 2.

But only works on humanoids of medium size or smaller. Not terribly useful in either campaign at the moment as most foes usually not legal targets for this spell.

Shatter is pretty good (against enemy cleric´s holy symbols )

Haven't seen anyone try this. I've had enemies use it against the PC's to bust potion vials on once in a great while. The party usually doesn't want to wreck potential loot, which is probably why they shy away from this.

For mages you have Web, Invisibility, Scorching ray, etc..

No arguments there. All good spells. However, the character mix in the groups is a bit different with one party having a sorceress/bard/cleric as the spellcasters and the other group having a druid/bard/cleric as the spellcasters. The clerics in both groups wind up taking the buff spells along with a mix of utility ones like silence, etc.

As mentioned before, if your players are all using up their 2nd level slots in the animal buffs, maybe you're running the game too fast. Try placing some traps. Taking 20 in your search checks really cuts into the duration of those spells.

Spells with a 10 min/level duration seem to be long enough to last for a typical dungeon, even with a slow-moving party and taking a couple 20's along the way. Even though fights may only last a few rounds, we usually assume at least 3 to 5 minutes are spent after each encounter with looting, healing and so forth. But in a typical night, they may only have 3 to 6 encounters. Sure I can make bigger dungeons or artificially stall them somehow, but it wouldn't deter them from taking those buff spells if they have a 10 min/level duration.

With the 1 min/level these just last for 1 battle, perhaps two if they are close enough together. Players just use them for 1 or 2 battles where they are most useful. Then for the other battles they are gone.

There are other 2nd level spells with 1 min/level duration such as Blur, Levitate, etc. Think of how you use those spells in a combat situation, then apply similar thinking to the buff spells. That's how the group is using them, and they have been working fine.

 

[Pax]

The spell Blindsight has a range of 30 ft., that's not very much.

It's certainly better than nothing.

A flying caster will try to keep a greater distance if possible. Tremorsense wouldn't help to detect flying creatures and to get the blindsense ability, you have to shapechange into a dragon, IIRC. The feat blindsight (MoW) is available only to druids.

"Dragonsight", a perfectly lovely (IMO) 5th level Transmutation spell (for sorcerors, wizards, and bards) from the Draconomicon gives you lowlight vision, Darkvision with a range of 10' per caster level, and blindsense with a range of 5' per caster level. ^_^

Mind Blank protects against EACH spell of the enchantment school, the whole day.

You shouldn't over-generalise. While it is true, I can't name any Enchantment-school spells which are not "mind affecting", never assume there isn't one SOMEwhere out there, nor that there will never be one in the future. ^_^

An enchanter specialist will be quite frustated to face an enemy warded by that spell. A DM will be quite frustrated when an epic monster (say a LeShay) has no problems to charm the level 22 cleric and fighter buddies, but fails to handle the MB'ed wizzies without killing them (and even that will be not easy)

So? Every class has it's strengths, and weaknesses. If enchanters don't lay plans for removing Mind Blank spells from higher-level foes ASAP, then they deserve to get hosed.

Go with Protection from all Elements (6th, MoW) instead of Energy Immunity, lasts only 10 min/caster level, but wards against all energy types like Protection from Energy does against one type.

Okay, a resistance, rather than an immunity. *shrug* Besides, MotW is a 3.0 source, and not everything from there can be accepted as-is without re-assessment for balance in the 3.5 ruleset.

Those spells are banned in the groups I'm part of [...]

Hey, I'm not the one that first strayed form teh Core Rules. And everything is subject to GM approval - even the spells in the PHB! Ergo, non-issue.

Yep, it comes down to these three or four spells to handle a MB'ed (level 8), blurring (level 3?), flying (level 3), spell turning (level 7), mirror imaged (level 2), shielded (level 1), perhaps stoneskinned and energy protected (level 3or 6)/resistant(level 2) wizard. Give him a scarab of protection (DMG) and he has a good protection against death effects.

No, those are only the few spells I bothered to list - literally off the cuff. There is a WIDE range of spells otu there that can handle a character like that. Give me an evil-as-sin BBEG wizard with True Sight and Crushing Fist of Spite, and we'll see how long that invisi-wizard keeps breathing - as just one more example.

But that's not the problem. The problem I have is, that some spells last too long.

So, what, you want your wizards to NEVER be prepared for anything ...?

A wand of Glitterdust needs an arcane caster, IIRC. Potions are ok, but their effect can be easily dispelled.

The wand needs only a semidecent investment in Use Magic Device ... or the Magic domain ... or a level of Sorceror or Wizard ... etc.

 

[Pax]

First of all we don't have/use Savage Species or the region specific books. Nor any online or dragon magazine stuff.

Yuor campaign, then. But that doesn't make the spell itself unbalanced in terms of D&D as a whole. ^_^

You say you can cancel invisibility-effects with a sack of flour, but where do you throw it (and how far/high) ???

Ready action: chuck the flour at the wizad the moment he's detected in the act of casting a spell.

Spot DCs are so extremly high (not mentioned the range increment of such checks...) that there is a very small chance anyone but the rogue will see it.

Listen DCs won't be nearly as high, given any casting of any spell with a (V)erbal component - and you only NEED the 5' square, so you don't have to make pinpoint DC's anyway.

Who can use a wand of Glitterdust except perhaps the rogue ? Remember, no magic users.

Anyone with ranks of UMD. Given the level your flying wizard must be, even cross-class ranks could easily be enough that the character should only fail on a roll of 4 or less.

There's also the simple expedient of one level of Cleric, with the Magic domain. Suddenly, every spell=trigger item in the universe is yours for the using. ^_^

Scent takes a lot of time to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature and you have to be next to it (5ft). Not very easy for a wolf to keep up with a wizard flying 50 ft. above ground. He won't even smell the wizard, since he is more than 30ft apart.

Improved Scent, Uncanny Scent. Pinpoint you within 60' as a (IIRC) Move action.

I have seen what a single wizard level 11 can do to a party of 7 (!) characters level 15 (clr, wiz, wiz/rog, rog, pal/ftr/rgr, rog/asn, drd) in open range. We all died before we got a real chance to act.

Then, frankly, yoru characters were dumb, and/or the GM outright hosed you. No defensive preparations? No Contingencies? You ALL lost initiative, and the GM decreed it was a surprise? And you were all riding that CLOSE together ... ?!?

 

[Thanee]

Listen DCs won't be nearly as high, given any casting of any spell with a (V)erbal component

Yep, base DC would be 0 probably.

and you only NEED the 5' square, so you don't have to make pinpoint DC's anyway.

This is wrong. Pinpointing actually is the act of determining the exact 5' square.

Bye
Thanee

 

[isoChron]

As I mentioned several times I want to make an encounter against a standard group containing that wizard. This encounter shouldn't use a magic using character class.
So no cleric with magic domain and no spells from other books/sources (since we restricted our list to PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, Monsters of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, S&F, S&F, MotW, T&B, DotF and FRCS; this is a list long enough to cause DM's headaches).

And I can't see how a spell get's balanced only if you allow other sources in your game. I always thought a spell must be balanced even if you you the PHB alone ... *Shrug*

And again I ask you if you can throw a sack of flour 50ft up in the sky (given that the wizard is dumb enough to be directly above you as he sees you concentrating on the sky with a dusty sack in your hand ...).
Even then you have a 50% miss chance (invisibility). So even if your ranged touch attack would hit at 50ft he isn't affected half of the time.

quote pax Then, frankly, yoru characters were dumb, and/or the GM outright hosed you. No defensive preparations? No Contingencies? You ALL lost initiative, and the GM decreed it was a surprise? And you were all riding that CLOSE together ... ?!?

Well I don't know how you travel overland in times of peace. we stick together and don't ride all along with 30ft distance between us. Remember we were 7 party members on the move through open country.
Yes sure we could all ride several tenth of feet apart and cast see invisibility the whole day over but that seems not very plausible for me.
And yes he surprised us. He fired out of the blue sky (invis., greater) so how should we not be surprised ???
And some of our group had a better INI than the wizi. The Paladin for example. He managed to get his bow and strung it ... before his horse (and most other) was blast to death by a fireball.
The contingency was a Dim.Door in case some melee attacked the party wizard .... not very good against a casting wizard.
I don't think we played the characters dumb but simply realistic. Your character may ride apart from your companions and don't talk a word the whole boring day without reason. Our characters were friends with a life.

And you can't target someone if you know the square but you can't see him. No targetted spells, only a very good chance to get him with area spells.

 

[Majere]

Well I don't know how you travel overland in times of peace. we stick together and don't ride all along with 30ft distance between us. Remember we were 7 party members on the move through open country.
Yes sure we could all ride several tenth of feet apart and cast see invisibility the whole day over but that seems not very plausible for me.
And yes he surprised us. He fired out of the blue sky (invis., greater) so how should we not be surprised ???

Wait Wait wait
Your 7 15th level PCs died to TWO fireballs ?
All of them ?
What the hell kind of uselss characters did you have ?

And it might have only been one fireball given that you said the wizard didnt even beat you all on initiative.
And noone in you part have a permanency on see invisible or true sight ?

You didnt all spread out after the first one so you couldnt get hosed again ?
The cleric forgot to heal people ? Only the mage should be seriously hurt after the fireball as the rouge has improved evasion, as 30 (or 45 if empowered) average damage shouldnt put much dent in a level 15 tank. Assuming they having got fire resitance on their armor (Excellent buy at this level)

I mean, you havent given us every detail, but it sound like you guys major screwed up on that combat.

I cant even begin to play this out in my mind without the mage dying within a round or two after surpize. The first thing YOUR mage does (with his permanent see invis) is a targetted greater dispel magic at your assailant (rolling d20 +15 vs 22 against each and every spell on the enemy mage), then the druid does the same thing.
Oh look, there is this guy falling out the sky.. fighters go get him !

I just cant play this out where any of your party should get killed unless they fail both saving throws (except your mage)
And if you are going to post that your party members all have rubbish hp, you should fix that by level 15, you have plenty of gold. Our level 15 mage is well over 120hp as a drawf with an amulet of +4con. With racial saving throw bonus your asailant might have got him down to half hp... if that.

Majere
Notes poor play does not a poor class make

 

[Thanee]

My wizard PCs probably wouldn't get hurt by such a fireball, thanks to energy buffer or energy immunity. 24h buffs are usually up even in peaceful times.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Merlion]

You shouldn't over-generalise. While it is true, I can't name any Enchantment-school spells which are not "mind affecting", never assume there isn't one SOMEwhere out there, nor that there will never be one in the future. ^_^

I could be wrong about this, but I believe the PH states that all enchantments are mind affecting.
Edit: I just checked, it does in fact say that.

I've got no problem with Mind Blank blocking a whole school of magic, but I think it blocks to many divinations (like Discern Location), and I'd like to see spells that block other whole forms of magic (such as makking you immune to being transmutated against your will in any way, or making you immune to death and negative energy effects...wait there is a spell like that but Wizards dont get it for some odd reason...)




And I still cant believe people think the stat buffs are so great. I've never seen them used. In my experience characters usualy already have items adding enhancment bonuses to their important scores...and now that they only last for one combat...given a choice between raising the Fighter's Dex by 4 for one combat, or casting Blur, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray or the like well...

I mean their not useless or anything, but given the commonality of stat boosting items, your mostly going to be using them on the secondary stats, especially by the time a 10 minute/level duration would make them actually last all that long.

Even in special situations...rather than enhancing Dex to Move Silently or Hide just cast Invisibility.

Of course I'm against the wholesale utility magic/duration nerf anyway (Invisbility, Fly, Polymorph, the stat buffs)

There does seem to be a drift toward making magic entirely for in-combat use.

 

[Thanee]

There does seem to be a drift toward making magic entirely for in-combat use.

Or at least make the ones that are useful in combat be rather bad otherwise. :\

Bye
Thanee

 

[iwatt]

There are other 2nd level spells with 1 min/level duration such as Blur, Levitate, etc. Think of how you use those spells in a combat situation, then apply similar thinking to the buff spells. That's how the group is using them, and they have been working fine.

Maybe it's just a feature of my campaigns, but we don't usually have the chance to buff before every combat. Usually you get either 1 or 2 rounds of buffing (if you stick around to fight that is ). In those circumstances, ther'es always a better buff than the animal spells. LIke the ones you mentioned above. With 1 min /Lev, you've relegated the animal spells to "in combat" buffs. And there's always a better spell to cast than one of these while in combat. Including 1st leve spells like Divine Favor, Shield of faith, Portection from X, and Sanctuary. And if you aren't buffing you're spell slinging, so that's also a posibility.

By the way, in your circumstance (fighting giants), I agree that the physical buffs become the most useful of your 2nd level spells, at least for clerics. But remember, ther'es still spiritual weapon... Let your god do the giant stomping for you. d8 per round isn't to relevant, but it's just fun to hide and have a Force battle-axe wacking those giants for a while.