Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Kalendraf]

Maybe it's just a feature of my campaigns, but we don't usually have the chance to buff before every combat. Usually you get either 1 or 2 rounds of buffing (if you stick around to fight that is ).

There are 1 or 2 really good scout characters in both campaigns, and they tend to give the group enough warning in advance of most encounters that the buff spells can still be applied. I agree that it's definitely a contributing factor in making buff spells more useful than they might otherwise be. No doubt every spell is going to see somewhat different usefulness depending on party tactics and composition. These groups lend proof that the buff spells are useful and balanced in their current 3.5 form.

 

[danielinthewolvesden]

An 11th lvl wizard could kill 7 lvl 15 players with 2 consecutive rds of actions and some biblical die rolling Fireball 880' range True Sight 120' So start bombing at 140' and you wont be seen by true sight .

Nope. Not even with two Maximized Fireballs. True, he could remain hidden for a while, but he couldn't kill a party of 7X 15th level PC's with any two spells- unless everyone failed both saves, and they all had crud hp, and no one did anything even halfway clever. It is assuming all 3 of these that make us dubious.

OK, Isochron, so your Fighter10/Rngr2/Pal3 didn't have a Mount- but he'd still likely have over 120 hp. So how did two spells kill him? Which two spells were cast? The first was a FB, yes- and then....? We are assuming the first was a Maximized FB- true? And- everyone failed BOTH saves? Even the rogue?

 

[danielinthewolvesden]

Iwatt- I agree that folks who show their superbuild that assumes a dozen rounds of buffing prior to combat are living in woo-woo land. They somehow forget the the enemy can buff also, or could be attacking or running away, and that just one combat per day isn't what you always get.

But there are still a few buff spells that last hours per level, and extended these last a looooong time. I am in a game where we are 11th or so, and Greater magic weapon, Magic vestment, Mage armour and Shield other are just 4 we sometimes cast that last all day for most purposes. I'd have to say that a normal mid level party would have a couple buffs up while traveling.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Strangely, True Seeing isn't an appropriate defence against flying greater invisible wizards, because it only has a range of 120ft and he can bombard happily from further away than that. See invisibility works out to range of vision, but True Seeing doesn't. Seems a little funny but there you go.

First- I was responding to the sarcastic remarks of other posters (if they wish to be insulting I can be easily be condescending in return)

I have made every effort to be polite and inquiring in the face of your arrogant posturing. Just get over yourself.

 

[Pax]

Second- the necklace of adaption is nice but not fully proof against the full arsenal brought to bear ( ie it can be negated)

Got to target it to dispel it; got to SEE it to target it; got to remove the enemy's clothes and/or armor to see thenecklace.

Third- The character is trying to cast while subjected to silence and vulnerable to counterspells.

And if you don't have the right counterspell(s) prepared *shrug* ...

Fourth- The prjected image doesnt need to carry magic items as I cast the spell from it heading back towards myself ( Directional properties of a projected image) actually my character isnt actively using the object in question either ( as this effect can be obtained without me holding the item)

Spells you cast can originate from the image. however, nothing in the RAW supports the notion that spells cast by an ITEM (that happens, coincidentally, to be in your possession) canoriginate form the Projected Image.

really I can go on and on but by using the logic that anything COULD be countered then frankly there are no underpowered or overpowered spells in the game and this entire thread is pointless.

Could does not equal WOULD.

And yes, there ARE overpowered spells, and there ARE underpowered spells. What those are tend to depend on several variables - high level or low, high magic or low, wealthy or poor treasure-returns, core-only or anything-wotc-is-okay, or ...points in between on all of those axes.

The combination listed bypasses SR and allows the character to take other actions (even if it is just counterspelling and using quickened spells) bypasses HPs ( it attacks an attribute) and unless the victim has immunity to poison it will result in death ( neutrilize poison can be can be countered with a 4th or 5th lvl conjuration spell and improved counterspell and is using an equal slot for the victim as it needed to be silent metamagic enhanced)

Or use a Rod of Silent Metamagic, stored in a Glove of Storing (a very smart trick - get a pair of such gloves, put a Rod of Silent Spell in one, and a Rod of Still Spell in the other - to allow escape spells in any restrictive situation, except only when a (M)aterial component is required).

 

[Pax]

Nice try to push my Pali to high level but he was Fighter 10 then Ranger and Paladin (Torm) 'till 15th. Actually Ftr10/Rgr2/Pal3. And no he didn't have a mount. I never mentioned a "Paladins Mount".

That character isn't a Paladin at all. It's a Fighter, with a splash of front-loaded ranger and a splash of front-loaded paladin. Your mention of "the paladin" in your description of the encounter was misleading.

I was talking about a group traveling through the north of Tethyr after some heavy fighting with a troll/ork army at Eshpurta. All we had were light and heavy warhorses. In our campaign you don't get holy avengers and special mounts on the fly over night. In 3.0 it wasn't that useful to have a paladins mount if you teleport a lot.

Then why weren't you teleporting? ^_^

I don't know your style of play but please don't call someone a liar you don't know. Your arguments are based on assumptions made from YOUR gaming experience not ours.

No, my assumptions were made based on the RAW, alone. My first group didn't blow wads of cash on permanent spells and such, either - but the Wizard DID get permanent see invisible, just because it IS far too useful for at least ONE person in the party to have that spell functioning 24/7.

And please don't asume your choices are the best another group could have made in another complete different campaign/situation.

What choices?

I described real-world spacing issues - just by dint of how many people you had, and the fact that you were riding, you should've been too far apart to catch BOTH ends of your party with a single fireball.

Add to that, your comment that they were all WARhorses. That means stallions, and that means no riding side-by-side, either. Because I do mean stallions, not mares or even geldings. A warhorse needs the aggression of intact testosterone-producing gonads ... or it's just a riding horse, at best. A minimum of ten feet, in all directions, between such horses, I'd say.

As mentioned we didn't have permanency in our group. Are these wizards now a dump pack because they didn't have this one spell. They chosed other spells that fitted their situation more.

No, but they should then have arranged between them to keep the party blanketed in cast spells that would serve similar purpose, or to craft items of similar function.

And I never said we were on enemy territory. That's one thing you said, not me. We were travelling on the road in Amn because in Amn it's not allowed to use teleportation spells and we had some places to visit along the way to Athkatla.

Wait, above you said TETHYR, now it's AMN. *opens his FRCS and checks the maps* While Tethyr and Amn are adjacent, they're not the same place. So, which was it ... Tethyr ... or Amn?

And another point is that you still can't get True Seeing permanent on yourself, even if the fighter has spend his 2 skillpoints per level in UMD instead of ride, jump, climb, knowledge or whatever other nice skills are out there. (This would make +7.5 ranks in UMD vs. 3 checks to use a scroll with UMD.
1. Decipher Script 25+spell level=DC30.
2. Emulate Spell ability DC 20 gives your caster level as result-20 ... must be 9 or better to cast from a scroll without problems
3. Emulate Ability Score (WIS 15) gives you a virtual score of result-15. You need 30 to get there ...
not that easy, or ?)

PHB page 85, DC for using a scroll is 20 plus spell-level. And that's one roll, all you have to do, once the spell is deciphered. DC20 to activate the Wand ofRead Magic in order to decipher it check-free.

And True Seeing is NOT on the list of possible spells given in the PHB list. Even not in T&B.

If your DM houseruled that, nice for you. But that's not covered by the rules.

Beg to differ; it COULD be researched, per the Permanency rules. Ergo, it doesn't have to be 100% house rule.

I'm a little bit dissapointed about your way to draw conclusions on a basis of little information. That's ok for you but to call someone a liar is a totally different thing.

You said - and I quote - "pal/ftr/rgr" ... and by listing paladin FIRST, it's entirely logical to assume that Paladin was the class with the most levels.

You also merely said, earlier, - and again, I quote:

And some of our group had a better INI than the wizi. The Paladin for example. He managed to get his bow and strung it ... before his horse (and most other) was blast to death by a fireball.

"The paladin". "His horse". Logical conclusion, the horse was the paladin's Mount. In combination with the above, logical assumption is 10-ish levels of Paladin.

 

[apsuman]

Okay which way does a cloudkill travel? answer away from caster.

Bingo. We are on the same page here.

Does a cloudkill sink or rise? answer sink to lowest point.

again, agreement

what happens when something the other direction uses or has an effect that simulates gust of wind on it? Answer it moves the cloud back to the edge of the gust of wind.

Whoa nelly! Where did this come from? In the SRD it says that cloudkill "This spell generates a bank of fog, similar to a fog cloud, except that its vapors are yellowish green and poisonous. "

And under fog cloud it says that "A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round."

And finally, the SRD says that a GUST of Wind "creates a severe blast of air (approximately 50 mph) that originates from you, affecting all creatures in its path."

So, I would think that Gust of wind would wipe out a clouldkill spell.

What can you do with a project image? Use it as a focal point to cast a spell originating in a point other than itself.

Right.

What spell can a projected image cast on itself? Answer illusion magics.

Again, true, and you mentioned silence and how your homebrew wizard can cast silence, not arguing with you there.

Hmmm what advantage is one able to effect with different variations of forcecage? answer either have a line of effect or not into it.

Right ...

What does a maximized cloudkill do when its area effect is stationary? 4 pts of Con Damage save for half if you make a fortitude save.

...right (if you can make it stationary -- like in a forcecage cube prison)...

Advantage?? the ability to use countermagic while the cloud does its dirty work 36-72 Con damage ..

Again, true IF you can keep the thing stationary and keep your opponent in the cloud

probably too busy thinking I am stupid or a noob instead of thinking how the directional aspect of casting can be used to great effect.

Not what I was thinking.

Before you say "do you have 18 gust of winds?" ... no but I did spend 1500 xps to have it on an object

why so you can eliminate your own cloudkill spell?

Yes I know I made reference to one option of the forcecage but I also said read the spells and think about how they can be used ( the solid also works in a different and more dangerous way)

Yes I know that you told me to think about how they can be used, and I did. After thinking about it, I was still confused as to why you think the projected image helps you with this combo. You cited silence, so I must assume that in your killer combo the projected image is inside the silenced area and that is the big advantage. Personally, when you get to the level you are talking about if you are going to use silence, you should (and should have at your disposal) the silent spell feat. Really, is there any other reason (beside the silence) that you need the projected image? I still don't see how it is useful to you.

 

[Nail]

Apsuman: I'm guessing that Khristos is implying that if he casts Gust of Wind "away from" the Cloudkill center, that the poisonious cloud will be sucked in that direction. Hence, the Cloudkill doesn't leave through the bars of the Forcecage; every itme it moves, Khristos sucks it back in.

Convoluted? Yep. Would it work, given the RAW? Nope.

Boy, it sure would be nice if Khristos could explain himself........

 

[Nail]

So....how 'bout them Overpowerd/Underpowered spells?

I'll add Protection form Evil to this list, even though it's a sacred cow. It's protections vs. Enchantments is too broad for a 1st level spell.

...that's why my Cleric loves to have it memorized. (We've got a low Will save Ftr.)

 

[Thanee]

I'll add Protection form Evil to this list, even though it's a sacred cow. It's protections vs. Enchantments is too broad for a 1st level spell.

Broad?

IMHO it protects only against a single spell from the school (dominate).

Bye
Thanee