Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Nail]

The point is: This spell gives AC and save bonuses, makes summoned creatures meaningless, and negates against a broad range of spells.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt ...(snip)... to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

That's two very large chunks of the Enchantment school, nicht var?

 

[Eldragon]

So....how 'bout them Overpowerd/Underpowered spells?

I'll add Protection form Evil to this list, even though it's a sacred cow. It's protections vs. Enchantments is too broad for a 1st level spell.

...that's why my Cleric loves to have it memorized. (We've got a low Will save Ftr.)

Agreed, Protection from Evil as written is the universal cure-all for heroic adventurers. Everything that the stereotypical BBEG has at his disposal to suddenly turn a losing battle around is lost. Can't dominate the fighter, Can't summon undead minons to protect his retreat, AND the target gets a bonus to saves and AC. BUT its not a real problem if the DM interprets all of it's functions as being protection against evil summoned creatures and evil spell casters.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Nope. Not even with two Maximized Fireballs. True, he could remain hidden for a while, but he couldn't kill a party of 7X 15th level PC's with any two spells- unless everyone failed both saves, and they all had crud hp, and no one did anything even halfway clever. It is assuming all 3 of these that make us dubious.

OK, Isochron, so your Fighter10/Rngr2/Pal3 didn't have a Mount- but he'd still likely have over 120 hp. So how did two spells kill him? Which two spells were cast? The first was a FB, yes- and then....? We are assuming the first was a Maximized FB- true? And- everyone failed BOTH saves? Even the rogue?

As isochron mentioned, I was the DM that created the encounter (under 3.0 rules at that time). I don't have the stats of the mage at hand (I'm at a conference til end of the week), but the wizard attacked the traveling group at daytime in Amn. He had Fly, Impr. Invis. (silent), Shield, Haste (silent), Protection from Fire, Mirror Image and Stoneskin cast prior to combat. I rolled a good initiative and gave him a surprise round. He brought one of the party wizards to negative hp during the surprise with three magic missile versions: one quickened, one empowered during haste and one maximized.
In round 2, the dying wizard got a good initiative, but he couldn't do anything. Then the enemy wizard got his turn. He slaughtered the other party wizard with the same combo: Three magic missiles in a round + movement afterwards. The cleric made a good guess and fortunately flame striked the opponent. I don't recall what the druid did (perhaps she tried to get to the other party wizard). One rogue tried to escape, the other tried to help also one of the wizards. The fighter dismounted and tried to ready his bow.
Round 3: The cleric and the druid (and the fighter's horse I think) were hit by two empowered fireballs (IIRC) leaving the druid almost dead (she failed both saves...).
The ftr/rgr/pal was not able to hit the enemy, one rogue was fleeing, the other was killed by disintegration after she tried to fire on the invisible but casting wizard. The cleric cast Invisibility Purge but the enemy stayed out of range.

That's what I recall by now. It ended in a TPK, the enemy killed the cleric, the second rogue and the fighter with area spells and by using a wand of magic missiles (CL 9).

Any questions? I can give you more details on saturday...

Perhaps we should keep on topic. BTW, the fight described above showed how overpowered Haste was in 3.0

 

[Thanee]

The point is: This spell gives AC and save bonuses, makes summoned creatures meaningless

Only those w/o spell resistance and ranged attacks.

That's two very large chunks of the Enchantment school, nicht var?

var?

I can't find any enchantment spell besides the dominate line, which fits into the above description.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

He brought one of the party wizards to negative hp during the surprise with three magic missile versions: one quickened, one empowered during haste and one maximized.

!?

A 15th level wizard died to those three miserable spells?
Pathetic whimp, he deserved no better!

17+25+25=67 dmg... 66 hp at 15th level!?

And this was even 3.0 ... the land of ever-running spells!

And even if you do not have triple empowered endurance up and running throughout the day, then you would at least have a magic item to boos Con to decent levels... well, or you die from three magic missiles!

He slaughtered the other party wizard with the same combo: Three magic missiles in a round + movement afterwards.

...

Round 3: The cleric and the druid (and the fighter's horse I think) were hit by two empowered fireballs (IIRC) leaving the druid almost dead (she failed both saves...).

More low hp characters?

Even with full damage, that's something like hundred-some damage.
Quite surviveable by a druid of that level.

Well, happens.

That's why you use long duration protection spells even in times of peace.
And why you always have some emergency spells prepared.

Should teach them to be a bit more paranoid.

BTW, the fight described above showed how overpowered Haste was in 3.0

Only showed that your players deserved it!

Having trouble with the mage is one thing (flying invisible nasties surely are not to be taken lightly), having PCs die, ok, but having a WHOLE party die!?

A whole party of 15th level characters... *shakes head*

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

var?

.....(sheepish)...I was kinda hoppin' you'd help me out there. My German has never been a strong suit. ...If I ask nicely? Please?

I can't find any enchantment spell besides the dominate line, which fits into the above description.

This won't be complete, but it's probably close:

Enchantment(Charm)

• Charm Monster
• Charm Monster, Mass
• Charm Person
• Enthrall
• Symbol of Persuasion

Enchantment(Compulsion)

• Animal Trance
• Antipathy
• Binding
• Calm Animals
• Calm Emotions
• Command
• Command, Greater
• Demand
• Dominate Animal
• Dominate Monster
• Dominate Person
• Geas/Quest
• Geas, Lesser
• Hypnotism
• Suggestion
• Suggestion, Mass
• Sympathy

 

[The Souljourner]

Gotta agree with those that say that a standard 15th level party shouldn't have died to a single well-prepared 11th level caster. I don't hold with the "permancied X is a must have". In fact, permanency is total crap, and no one I know has ever used it in 3.x. Spending XP that can be blown away by a single 3rd level spell (dispel magic)? Hell no. However, a standard 3.0 15th level party should wake up and cast a bunch of day long buff spells that will keep them alive from the numerous baddies that have any ability to actually threaten the god-like beings they are.

Now.. it sounds like your 15th level group was somewhat weaker than standard, most of them having below average Con (at least, below average for D&D characters that survive that long) and below average hitpoints to boot. Add in the ridiculous damage you can do with magic missile and 3.0 haste, and you had to realize you were going to kill off the two wizards pretty much right off the bat.

Once they're dead, you had to know the rest of the party really can't do much against a flying invisible wizard...

This smacks of DM error. Not that you broke the rules, but that the PCs were put in a position where they were almost certain to lose. There's a reason why D&D requires a DM - the DM is supposed to judge the difficulty of the encounter and balance it against the strength of the party. If this was supposed to be an insanely difficult fight that could easily result in half the party dying, then ok.... but most people don't like that kind of thing being a surprise. Go up against a huge dragon that you know is going to kick your butt... ok. Getting jumped on the way home from the grocery store? Not so much.

Back on topic - Silence is good, but only against spellcasters and only against spellcasters who can't move out of the area of effect (which isn't that big).

10 min per level for the buffs would be nice. The only spell I ever see cast is bull's strength, and that's almost always from the druid who has nothing better to do with his second level spells, and probably should have already turned into a bear and mauled people instead.

-The Souljourner

 

[Nail]

... Go up against a huge dragon that you know is going to kick your butt... ok. Getting jumped on the way home from the grocery store? Not so much.

Souljourner's on fire today.....

The only spell I ever see cast is bull's strength, and that's almost always from the druid who has nothing better to do with his second level spells, and probably should have already turned into a bear and mauled people instead.

Yep. Me too.

 

[Nail]

A-ha!

Thanee: I know how to use an on-line german dictionary, "nicht wahr?"

 

[apsuman]

A level 11 wizard with a 20 int starts the day with 4/6/5/5/4/3/1 spells

Bfore combat
3 Fly
5 Silent Impr. Invis
1 Shield
4 Silent Haste
3 Protection from Fire
2 Mirror Image
4 Stoneskin

Leaving him with
4/5/4/3/3/2/1

On the surprize round
5 Quickened Magic Missile
3 Empowered Magic Missile
4 Maximized Magic Missile
Leaving,
4/5/4/2/2/1/1

On round 2
5 Quickened Magic Missile
3 Empowered Magic Missile
4 Maximized Magic Missile
Leaving,
4/5/4/1/0/0/1

On round 3
5 Empowered Fireball
5 Empowered Fireball
Leaving,
4/5/4/1/0/-2/1

Round 4
6 Disintegrate
Leaving,
4/5/4/1/0/-2/0

I am not trying to pick on Dark Dragon, he said if he recalled it was 2 empowered fireballs. But unless he is using an item there is no way he could have 2 fireballs with any metamagic on them. And, I don't know what area effect spells he could have left to wipe up the party.

A 15th level cleric could spontaneously cast up to 5 Cure cirtical wounds. He could even cast cure critical wounds, mass at eighth level twice.

And for sure it bites that the guy lost the save to the disintegrate. But given that the wizard shot his ENTIRE wadd of spells, if the cleric would have simply cured over and over again just to stay in the fight, the wizard would have been down to items only as a way to fight.