Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Scion]

I strongly disagree.

That is fine, but I'll post a few counters. It wont solve anything between us in all likelyhood I have never seen problem one with haste in any game I have run or been in, but there have been dozens of problems with improved invis all over the place.

Haste was more of a workaround for a problem inherant in the system, much like the mystic theurge. There has yet to be a completely workable solution within the core, although I have several houserules that work fine now.

There were plenty of spells available to the PCs that would have completely countered the improved invisibility: See Invisible,

Yep, but you just got surprised, and now you are useing your turn to cast a spell just so that 'next turn' you can have a useful action. Effectively the enemy has 2 full turns to act.

True Seeing,

Range is too short.

and Glitterdust.

If you could guess where they were at well enough to drop this, then you are probably better of blasting with something bigger, and are one of the luckiest people on earth.

Either of the first two, followed by the last, would have negated the entire benefit of the Improved Invisibility.

For your fix we are looking at: surprise round, first round you get to where you can see the opponent, second round you do something so that others can see the opponent. Now the enemy probably has around 3 actions before anything useful happens. The turns are just piling up now.

Let's do as you did, and look at that encounter without the haste.

Round one, the first wizard could not have been dropped with mere MM's; one quickened and one empowered, then that's it - no second empowered MM.

Sure, but then the 11th level mage is useing a 'first level spell'. It may be a good one, but it certainly shouldnt be dropping any 15th level characters, even on the third casting (if it does then something is seriously wrong with the party, as has been said before).

But still, no one knows where the bad guy is, and the badguy could have blasted with a number of better spells instead.

So, without haste, the guy uses one less 1st level spell (assuming rods of metamagic of course). But then he could have instead dropped an empowered fireball and fried the whole party at once.

With haste he could do even more damage, but the total damage dealt by a full barage round of empowered fireballs shouldnt be enough to take out a 15th level wizard (who should have the least hp), let alone anyone else in the party.

At this point: with haste but no improved invis everyone is hurt, mage is near death, but everyone knows where the enemy is and can do whatever they want with impunity. 7 15th level characters, 1 11th level wizard = 11th level wizard is dead.

Without haste but with improved invis: everyone is hurt, no one knows where the badguy is, someone will cast see invis and maybe glitterdust next round. Granting the badguy at least one more round of actions. Which is more than the haste does.

With both, dead party because they were not prepared in a useful fashion.

Again, at the end of round 1 we still have a full party members alive, and the enemy dead without improved invis but with haste even.

With improved invis, haste or not, the whole party is going to be dead (with this group at least).

So, which is the broken one? haste was barely even a blip on the radar. Nice? of course, but broken? no way, that honored position falls to improved invis by nearly the whole track.

Edit: especially since the extra haste action only happens on rounds where you have a full turn. On surprise rounds you only get single action, so no haste bonus.

 

[Majere]

Edit: especially since the extra haste action only happens on rounds where you have a full turn. On surprise rounds you only get single action, so no haste bonus.

So the truth is out.
None of the spells were broken, the Dm just didnt know the rules and took a full turn in the suprize round.
OOOPSS !!!

Majere

 

[danielinthewolvesden]

3.0 haste was broken. However, what is odd, is that my 3.0 party used to "buff up" every morning- with STR, CON & DEX spells (and a few others) that practically lasted all day (and we were only 12th or less). I remember making the chart! Just about everyone (who didn't have a Con boost item) had Endurance, those not in heavy armour had cats grace, and the fighter-types all had bulls str. Some PC's had 4 spells up.

Why the two wizards didn't have Endurance is beyond me- not to mention just about everyone else. I mean if you're playing in 3.0 land, then you're gonna have those buff spells up. Period. And note- the combat the DM described was at least 5 rounds long. Not two. Big difference.

As had been said- two many high level spells were cast by the wizard, and he should not have got 3 spells off during the surprise round. But I can't beleive neither wizard had Sheild- another spell which in 3.0 was rather overpowered. That make him 100% MM proof.

Those three spells (End, Bull s, Cats)WERE broken in the 3.0 period- and everyone had at least one, sometimes 3 on just about all day (and this is back to being on topic), and so was Haste.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yes I know I made reference to one option of the forcecage but I also said read the spells and think about how they can be used ( the solid also works in a different and more dangerous way)

So you were obscure and condescending. Great. You're also (from what I can tell) wrong.

A few points
1. You can't have your projected image inside a solid cube - you need line of effect to it at all times.
2. It's debateable (at best) what happens when the point of origin of a spell is supposed to pass through a wall of force - at a guess, the spell ceases functioning at that point in time as it is destroyed. Hell, it's debateable whether you can even sustain the spell in there - as far as I can tell, all references to 'point of origin' say that you need line of effect, or the spell ceases. So cloudkill inside a solid forcecage would simply... not happen.
3. Gust of wind dissipates a cloudkill in a single round, per the description of cloudkill. Full stop.

 

[apsuman]

As had been said- two many high level spells were cast by the wizard, and he should not have got 3 spells off during the surprise round. But I can't beleive neither wizard had Sheild- another spell which in 3.0 was rather overpowered. That make him 100% MM proof.

Those three spells (End, Bull s, Cats)WERE broken in the 3.0 period- and everyone had at least one, sometimes 3 on just about all day (and this is back to being on topic), and so was Haste.

Shield, now there's a spell that's overpowered. Mind you I don't think that MM is overpowered but Shield in some flavor is a must have. A brooch of shielding is practically required equipment just to avoid things like this. DM mistake or no, haste broken or not, poor tactics not withstanding, if the two wizards would have had a brooch of shielding on at the time none of us would be having this discussion.

 

[apsuman]

As had been said- two many high level spells were cast by the wizard, and he should not have got 3 spells off during the surprise round. But I can't beleive neither wizard had Sheild- another spell which in 3.0 was rather overpowered. That make him 100% MM proof.

Those three spells (End, Bull s, Cats)WERE broken in the 3.0 period- and everyone had at least one, sometimes 3 on just about all day (and this is back to being on topic), and so was Haste.

Shield, now there's a spell that's overpowered. Mind you I don't think that MM is overpowered but Shield in some flavor is a must have. A brooch of shielding is practically required equipment just to avoid things like this. DM mistake or no, haste broken or not, poor tactics not withstanding, if the two wizards would have had a brooch of shielding on at the time none of us would be having this discussion.

 

[Khristos]

So you were obscure and condescending. Great. You're also (from what I can tell) wrong.

A few points
1. You can't have your projected image inside a solid cube - you need line of effect to it at all times.
2. It's debateable (at best) what happens when the point of origin of a spell is supposed to pass through a wall of force - at a guess, the spell ceases functioning at that point in time as it is destroyed. Hell, it's debateable whether you can even sustain the spell in there - as far as I can tell, all references to 'point of origin' say that you need line of effect, or the spell ceases. So cloudkill inside a solid forcecage would simply... not happen.
3. Gust of wind dissipates a cloudkill in a single round, per the description of cloudkill. Full stop.

Line of effect has been covered elsewhere... the solid being more dangerous is because there are ways to maintain line of effect when your target is inside a force cube(2 that I know of both of which are not mage friendly) . The option presented used the more enjoyable barred version

I prefer people actually read the spells being discussed instead of just reading something here and accepting it as canon.

Okay in response to a separate post.
1) Planar calling was in my original series of statements however as the spell itself was not cast during the time stop it was dropped in later posts I guess as it wasnt a point of contention. Planar calling by far is a horribly broken spell as it doesnt come with any real cost like its clerical counterpart.

2) The range of gust of wind is 60 ft. I appreciate the fact you have surmised the ranging effects of the gust of wind as being the "loophole" and not assuming I am blowing the cloudkill about which would dissipate it.

3) In regards to projected image it becomes the point of origin as the caster. therefore by changing its facing you can direct spells at different angles you wouldnt normally be able to obtain (which is why it made my overpowered list)

4) once again this was meant to show spells that work around SR and within the framework of time stop. also by attacking constitution directly instead of hps it becomes more favorable at higher levels over damaging effects that effect hps.

 

[Dark Dragon]

So the truth is out.
None of the spells were broken, the Dm just didnt know the rules and took a full turn in the suprize round.
OOOPSS !!!

Majere

AFAIK, 3.0 Haste said that you get an extra partial action, regardless the situation (in this case a surprise round). Surprise round: Standard action + 5ft. step + free action (e.g. casting a quickened spell) + partial action given by Haste.

But the whole wiz11 vs. party15 discussion is not important because it deals with spells from 3.0 rules and converted AD&D characters which had bad luck and were not paranoid/using all their power to protect themselves to the limit.

Perhaps we should stick to the thread title and be polite

 

[Merlion]

Its interesting to note, on a related topic, spells that are technically "overpowered" or break the rules, but are still fine.

Scorching Ray for instance does 12 dice of damage eventually and should only do 10, by the charts

Flame Strike as 4th level Druid spell and 5th level Cleric spell has a cap to high for an Arcane 4th level spell, by the charts.

But no one ever seems to have problems with them

I'd say thats a sign that the charts arent 100% infallible...of course I'd also say its another sign that the whole arcane/divine thing is rather silly.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Its interesting to note, on a related topic, spells that are technically "overpowered" or break the rules, but are still fine.

Scorching Ray for instance does 12 dice of damage eventually and should only do 10, by the charts

Flame Strike as 4th level Druid spell and 5th level Cleric spell has a cap to high for an Arcane 4th level spell, by the charts.

But no one ever seems to have problems with them

Hmm, good point. I don't know in how this would affect the game (because I'm at least used to the errors you're just pointing out ), but I think it is worth a try. Either change the spell level or reduce the damage dice cap, IMHO.

I'd say thats a sign that the charts arent 100% infallible...of course I'd also say its another sign that the whole arcane/divine thing is rather silly.[/QUOTE]

Could you specify that, please?