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D&D 5E Pages from the PHB

Well said, Thaumaturge. There are so many camps and individual tastes with opinions on what is core d&d that the devs cannot possibly make everyone happy. If they only published what was universally agreeable to all players, we would have a dull, lowest common denominator of a game.

I embrace content that pushes me out of my d&d comfort zone. Races, classes, features that don't align with my Old School mentality are something that I may or may not use, but I appreciate that they're in their for my group's consideration.

At the end of the day we're talking about a game of make believe here, where we pretend to be elves, dwarves, warriors and wizards fighting monsters, right? So, let's not take ourselves too seriously.

The thing is OS is pretty darn crazy when you look at PC classes, with dragon and balrog offered up and played by people in the original campaigns. Modern stuff (dragonmen and robots etc) pretty tame!

Plot seed: Chaotic Evil Wild Mage dies under the influence of the aforementioned wild surge and her soul ends up in Mt. Celestia. She's causing no end of trouble running around being evil, but the powers that run the place don't want to kick her out because, by their code, she needs to be redeemed.

It's up to your band of cutters to slip into the plane and sneak her soul out for everyone's own good.

That's a great idea, love that.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I should note that the Helm of Opposite alignment pretty much said the exact same thing in its description(at least in 2e): "Your alignment becomes the opposite of what it is currently". It's fairly obvious that it's purpose was to turn good people into evil people who would backstab the party.
Oddly enough, I've seen them used more often in play to do the opposite: turn nasty or intolerable people (usually player characters) into decent ones who *won't* screw over the party or other innocent bystanders.

Lan-"but they're so much less fun that way"-efan
 

Remathilis

Legend
Lanefan said:
As an old-school type, there's a lot about basic 5e that's really encouraging me to take a long look at it...and the stuff that's missing from the basics will be trivially easy to bake back in:
- classes - once I've seen how the core 4 are built I can add Rangers, Druids, Assassins and Illusionists back in on a whim. Monks and Bards will be harder, but that's nothing new.
- races - again, after seeing the core 4 it'll be easy to put Part-Elves and Part-Orcs back in, and (if I have to) Gnomes.

Better news: wait till August and buy the Player's Handbook. It's going to have all those things right in it!
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Better news: wait till August and buy the Player's Handbook. It's going to have all those things right in it!
Of course it will, along with a whole bunch of other stuff I most likely won't want. Not much point in buying a 300-page book for 25 pages of material that I can make up myself. :)

Lan-"though I'll probably end up buying it anyway"-efan
 

Remathilis

Legend
Of course it will, along with a whole bunch of other stuff I most likely won't want. Not much point in buying a 300-page book for 25 pages of material that I can make up myself. :)

Lan-"though I'll probably end up buying it anyway"-efan

Eh. Why re-invent the wheel? Wait till it comes out to decide how useful it is.

Remath-"but speculating is half the fun"-ilis.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
The thing to remember about alignment in 5e (unless they've changed it since the playtest) is that it has no interaction with hard game rules.

That's a key point to remember!

Alignment only has mechanical consequences if the gaming group wants to have them, otherwise it's only for roleplay, and how strictly you have to adhere to it isn't even spelled out by the rules.

Also, it should be obvious that a gaming group who doesn't use alignment in their game, then stumbles upon that result on the wild mage table, should just ignore it. "Nothing happens" is always a perfectly valid random result.

Which is my long way of saying that while I enthusiatically applaud the existence of the wild magic surge (WMS) table, I find it sadly lacking in content. :)

I really see that table as purely indicative examples. The feel it delivers with those wacky results is basically "anything can happen with a wild mage", but of course they couldn't put more than a certain number. So for me it's a starting point, and if I'd have a Wild Mage PC in my game, I'd promptly replace the already used table results with new wacky ideas of my own!

As an old-school type, there's a lot about basic 5e that's really encouraging me to take a long look at it...and the stuff that's missing from the basics will be trivially easy to bake back in:
- classes - once I've seen how the core 4 are built I can add Rangers, Druids, Assassins and Illusionists back in on a whim. Monks and Bards will be harder, but that's nothing new.
- races - again, after seeing the core 4 it'll be easy to put Part-Elves and Part-Orcs back in, and (if I have to) Gnomes.

That's actually how 5e expects people to play: pick what you like from the PHB, MM or DMG, and add it on top of the "core" i.e. Basic.

The one huge disappointment to me after reading about the Mearls interview was the designers' ludicrously fast expectation of advancement rates - about a level every other session. But again, that should (in theory) be trivially easy to re-code.

Agree completely. I would have picked a much lower default advancement speed, but I don't really care, it's the easiest thing to house rule.

I too am somewhat thrilled to see a d% table in an official D&D book again; I hope there's more where that came from!

Agree again :)

To some extent I don't mind if alignment is mechanically baked in somehow, to the point that changing it makes a difference to how you play your character and-or how others perceive it. I also hope there are aligned items - things that work for you if you follow a certain ethos and bite you if you don't. That said, I can do without the black-and-white alignments as presented in the early editions; they should be somewhat malleable, gray scale, and subject to slow change over time. Also, your alignment should probably be determined by the DM once you've been played a while; if it says "NG" on your character sheet but your in-play actions have amounted to a lot of C and a little E then Ce you are.

We have to see the final versions of the 3 holy books and check if they really removed any mechanical reference or requirement with alignment. It's always a double-edge sword, because some mechanical effect can be useful or interesting to the game, but IMHO it becomes detrimental as soon as players start feeling restricted ("damn it, I can't do this or be that because I chose the wrong alignment").

Of course it will, along with a whole bunch of other stuff I most likely won't want. Not much point in buying a 300-page book for 25 pages of material that I can make up myself. :)

Well if you really feel it's too few material to make it worth buying it, in your home game you can still use stuff from the playtest rules...

Li-"always intrigued by Lanefan posts"-Shenron ;)
 

We've always played with alignment being equal to your characters personality and morals. It doesn't matter which order you create them in. Alignment, as I remember it from our 2e days(and I don't remember it changing in function in 3e at all) was a role playing aid. The game said "Use your alignment as a guide on how to role play your character. If you are LG, then think about what that means when you are making decisions. How would a LG person respond to this situation?" Even if you made up your character's personality in advance, you were still assigning the alignment to him that best suited the way you were planning on roleplaying him anyway. Therefore, your alignment was still a reminder of the morals of your character.

Some people weren't good at coming up with personalities so alignment helped them flesh that out: "I don't know how my character should act...wait, I'm Chaotic and Neutral. I don't care about helping anyone since I'm not good. I also like to act randomly and without pattern. Alright, I'll randomly steal that guy's pants."

I should note that the Helm of Opposite alignment pretty much said the exact same thing in its description(at least in 2e): "Your alignment becomes the opposite of what it is currently". It's fairly obvious that it's purpose was to turn good people into evil people who would backstab the party.

I think the point is that when you're alignment suddenly becomes CE, you should use the new alignment as a role playing aid to help you decide your character's actions.

The Helm of Opposite Alignment was a terrible, idiotic thing which was great if you wanted to wreck a good party (unless they could deal with it rapidly, which was entirely down to party composition). Why would you use that comparison?

Alignment in 2E was more than "role-playing aid" in how it was presented and treated by the game. Your group may have played it just as some mild thing, and ignored alignment-related rules and so on, but they were there. I agree that it largely remained that way in 3E - a lot more than an RP aid.

The problem I'm pointing out, and I note that nothing you've said goes against this, is the mindset of "My alignment tells me what to do", rather than "My character makes decisions based on his motivations, which include but are not limited to his alignment". You don't think "How would an LG person respond to this?", you think "How would my PC, who is a human male, aged 22, who grew up in a crowded city, and values life and justice, respond to this?".

Your Chaotic Neutral pant-stealer example is a very very good example of the sort of stupidity that alignment-first thinking produced. You get someone who makes no sense, behaves in a truly arbitrary and bizarre way, and could only exist in an RPG, and whose personality, if it ever needs to be explained, is really hard to explain. CN pant-stealer is the "Fishmalk" of D&D.

(As I noted, this is pretty much what I saw with Paladins played by people who didn't normally play L or G characters - they'd usually play them as bizarre arbitrary fascists trying to avoid losing their powers, whereas people who actually gave them a personality, or who were used to playing L and/or G characters extensively with the threat of losing their powers played them as actual people, and didn't cause havoc, even if they had to say no to some plans).

EDIT - To be clear, I don't hate alignment as a whole - I did once, when I was younger and scarred by this sort of idiocy, but I can see now that alignment is a pretty useful tool, so long as it is never seen as the sole motivator (or ridiculously dominant motivator) of a PC's actions. 5E looks to be doing pretty good with this - I am just a little concerned because this is the first time I've seen "alignment first" thinking in 5E, and I hope it's just to keep the entry short.
 
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The Hitcher

Explorer
I hate to say it, but Ruin Explorer is talking sense in this thread. I essentially agree with all that, but I'm not in the least bothered by a single result in the Wild Magic table tying into alignment in a way that would usually be counter-productive. If it fits anywhere, it fits here. And I highly doubt (based on previous comments from Mearls) that it's going to be indicative of the wider treatment of alignment in the game.
 

And I highly doubt (based on previous comments from Mearls) that it's going to be indicative of the wider treatment of alignment in the game.

This is what I hope is correct. It's entirely possible, as noted, that this is just shorthand, as it were - the playtest Alignments don't show this thinking. Equally, though I've seen smart, otherwise-good designers put out definitions of Alignments so bad that it's staggering, so one worries! :) Unreasonably, but one worries.
 

SavageCole

Punk Rock Warlord
We've always played with alignment being equal to your characters personality and morals. It doesn't matter which order you create them in. Alignment, as I remember it from our 2e days(and I don't remember it changing in function in 3e at all) was a role playing aid. The game said "Use your alignment as a guide on how to role play your character.

Using alignment as training wheels to help someone play a persona different than them makes sense, but it is very simplistic and like many crutches can often be a barrier to good roleplay. Alignment has an axis of three discrete values for Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic, when these are really continuous variables and often issue dependent for a character. I might be very law-abiding about certain rules, e.g. practice swordsmanship every day, never attack an unarmed man, obey all orders, but then less so about being loyal to my spouse, honest in my business dealings, etc.

What is good and what is evil is so subjective that this combined with the same problem of having three discrete values (Good, Neutral, Evil) constrains the development and play of a rich personality. Game of Thrones is a great of example of characters being capable of heroic good one minute and sinister evil the next. Real life provides similar examples.

The days of white hats/black hats and other over simplified substitutes for a complex character persona are behind us. With that said, I like the tongue-in-cheek value of alignment in d&d. It's part of the history of the game and may well help struggling roleplayers play make believe. My argument is that its an awkward constraint and barrier to roleplay .... and that it shouldn't be used mechanically to control a player/character that no longer needs these training wheels.
 

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