D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
catsclaw227
First Post
I understand this to be the case as well. To augment Hussar's questions slightly, does anyone know how many months before the release of 3e did third party publishers get the draft rules?Shroomy said:
Kunimatyu
First Post
Sanguinemetaldawn said:
As a DM(and really only a DM -- I'm rarely a player), 4e has me psyched -- easier monster statblocks and encounter design, streamlining abilities, and less cross-referencing. 4e (and 3.5 E6!) brought me back to D&D from True20, so for me, it's really the exact opposite of a revolt.
Orcus
First Post
Hussar, catsclaw,
Here are some answers.
There was no formal SRD until months after release. It might even have been nearly 9 months. (see below, it was longer--it was over a year)
We got draft rules from the PHB (which I still have, I spiral bound them) several months prior to launch. I would say maybe 4 months, at most. We got the MM a bit after that. Maybe 2 months before launch, at most. We barely had the DMG at all.
Last time we had the OGL listserve that we were all using daily and extensively. We were in constant contact with Ryan Dancey, the head of D&D and the head of the Open Gaming movement. He started the lists, which have (as of the other day) been closed down.
Prelaunch of 3E there were very few announced companies. Atlas and GreenRonin played things very close to the vest and released products at GenCon without a ton of pre-release hype. Necro had a web site up. Several other people had web sites up prior to release, most of which never really even materialized into real thriving companies. Fiend Games comes to mind.
At launch, there was very little available--GR's Freeport, Atlas' 3 Days to Kill and Necro's Wizard's Amulet (which has the honor of being the first d20 product available, as it was released electronically at 12:01 of the first day that was allowed for release; though GR and Atlas have the first commercial products that they sold that first day of the con). WW had the Creature Collection (that I produced) almost right away. It beat the official MM to release, which was quite an accomplishment.
Basically, the third party companies were different then. The general product was 32 page modules (other than the Creature Collection). And that is how things stayed for some time. Those products arent as viable today as they once were.
Buit back in the day we had pretty constant support and contact with Ryan Dancey. There was a real direct connection between the potential third party publishers and WotC.
We worked of a "gentleperson's agreement" that was in the form of an email on the OGL lists that was addressed "To Clark and anyone else wanting to make products for launch" and then it basically said what we could and couldnt use until the OGL and SRD were finalized.
Reviewing some older products, I notice that the OGL iteself had been finalized by the time we released Crucible of Freya, but the d20 STL was still a draft and there was not an SRD yet. Reviewing Demons and Devils, the same was true--the OGL was finalized but the s20 STL was still a draft and there was no SRD. By the time of Rappan Athuk 2 and Prisoners of the Maze, we were dealing with version 1.0 of both the OGL and the d20 STL and we had a draft of the SRD but it was not yet finalized. Same with Siege of Durgham's Folly (an adventure written for us by Mike Mearls back in his early freelancer days).
Here are some dates for you:
Crucible of Freya was late 2000. The OGL was done, but only a draft of the STL. No SRD yet.
Rappan Athuk 1 was late 2000 and only a draft of the STL, no SRD.
Demons and Devils was March of 2001 (for GAMA). As of that time still only a draft SRD
Rappan Athuk 2 was August of 2001 (GenCon). Still only a draft SRD.
Prisoners of the Maze was September of 2001 (just after GenCon). Still only a draft SRD.
So that means it was well over a year before a formal SRD was released. Let alone when it might have been posted online for people to view.
Hope that helps put things in perspective. There wasnt even anything close to a publically available SRD for over a year after launch of 3E.
Clark
Here are some answers.
There was no formal SRD until months after release. It might even have been nearly 9 months. (see below, it was longer--it was over a year)
We got draft rules from the PHB (which I still have, I spiral bound them) several months prior to launch. I would say maybe 4 months, at most. We got the MM a bit after that. Maybe 2 months before launch, at most. We barely had the DMG at all.
Last time we had the OGL listserve that we were all using daily and extensively. We were in constant contact with Ryan Dancey, the head of D&D and the head of the Open Gaming movement. He started the lists, which have (as of the other day) been closed down.
Prelaunch of 3E there were very few announced companies. Atlas and GreenRonin played things very close to the vest and released products at GenCon without a ton of pre-release hype. Necro had a web site up. Several other people had web sites up prior to release, most of which never really even materialized into real thriving companies. Fiend Games comes to mind.
At launch, there was very little available--GR's Freeport, Atlas' 3 Days to Kill and Necro's Wizard's Amulet (which has the honor of being the first d20 product available, as it was released electronically at 12:01 of the first day that was allowed for release; though GR and Atlas have the first commercial products that they sold that first day of the con). WW had the Creature Collection (that I produced) almost right away. It beat the official MM to release, which was quite an accomplishment.
Basically, the third party companies were different then. The general product was 32 page modules (other than the Creature Collection). And that is how things stayed for some time. Those products arent as viable today as they once were.
Buit back in the day we had pretty constant support and contact with Ryan Dancey. There was a real direct connection between the potential third party publishers and WotC.
We worked of a "gentleperson's agreement" that was in the form of an email on the OGL lists that was addressed "To Clark and anyone else wanting to make products for launch" and then it basically said what we could and couldnt use until the OGL and SRD were finalized.
Reviewing some older products, I notice that the OGL iteself had been finalized by the time we released Crucible of Freya, but the d20 STL was still a draft and there was not an SRD yet. Reviewing Demons and Devils, the same was true--the OGL was finalized but the s20 STL was still a draft and there was no SRD. By the time of Rappan Athuk 2 and Prisoners of the Maze, we were dealing with version 1.0 of both the OGL and the d20 STL and we had a draft of the SRD but it was not yet finalized. Same with Siege of Durgham's Folly (an adventure written for us by Mike Mearls back in his early freelancer days).
Here are some dates for you:
Crucible of Freya was late 2000. The OGL was done, but only a draft of the STL. No SRD yet.
Rappan Athuk 1 was late 2000 and only a draft of the STL, no SRD.
Demons and Devils was March of 2001 (for GAMA). As of that time still only a draft SRD
Rappan Athuk 2 was August of 2001 (GenCon). Still only a draft SRD.
Prisoners of the Maze was September of 2001 (just after GenCon). Still only a draft SRD.
So that means it was well over a year before a formal SRD was released. Let alone when it might have been posted online for people to view.
Hope that helps put things in perspective. There wasnt even anything close to a publically available SRD for over a year after launch of 3E.
Clark
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
Basically he's already mentioned that he thinks 32-page adventures don't cut it anymore.
Dunno why, I love'em, and Paizo's GameMastery modules are a nice example of how they can cut it still, in my opinion.
Dunno why, I love'em, and Paizo's GameMastery modules are a nice example of how they can cut it still, in my opinion.
Orcus
First Post
Absolutely.
First, I'm not sure it was 4 months. It may have been less.
Second, with 4 month lead time, that let 2 publishers have 32 page modules available in a box for sale at the con. I believe they used rush print methods too. That is hardly having the products in the distribution chain at launch.
Niether those products nor that type of delivery method work today.
32 page modules dont penetrate the distribution chain like they used to. Sure, a few companies can do it. But it isnt an optimal products. Plus distributors are licking their chops to cut marginal d20 products. I dont expect to get the love for a 32 page module post 4E that I would have before. People--meaning retailers and distributors--learned their lesson from 3E.
Products, to be relevant, must be bigger and better. They need significant color, just just b/w. That means print in Canada or China. That means more lag time from send off to print to return to distributors. Plus, the development time on products increases exponentially when you increase page count. And, while 3E was a big change, it didnt make the same fundamental changes that it appears 4E is making.
So yeah, what a garage company can jam out in 4 months prior to 3E is not the same as what a real company needs to produce a real, substantial product to support 4E. Paizo, Necro, GR, Goodman, etc., have all grown. The way we operate is different from pre-3E.
We arent talking 500 copies in a box in the trunk of your car for a con. We are talking having products validly in the distribution chain and ready to go in major retailers and game stores.
To hit a July release, we will have to have layout done and prepress pdf off to the printer by March/April. Thats your 3E lead time right there
Clark
First, I'm not sure it was 4 months. It may have been less.
Second, with 4 month lead time, that let 2 publishers have 32 page modules available in a box for sale at the con. I believe they used rush print methods too. That is hardly having the products in the distribution chain at launch.
Niether those products nor that type of delivery method work today.
32 page modules dont penetrate the distribution chain like they used to. Sure, a few companies can do it. But it isnt an optimal products. Plus distributors are licking their chops to cut marginal d20 products. I dont expect to get the love for a 32 page module post 4E that I would have before. People--meaning retailers and distributors--learned their lesson from 3E.
Products, to be relevant, must be bigger and better. They need significant color, just just b/w. That means print in Canada or China. That means more lag time from send off to print to return to distributors. Plus, the development time on products increases exponentially when you increase page count. And, while 3E was a big change, it didnt make the same fundamental changes that it appears 4E is making.
So yeah, what a garage company can jam out in 4 months prior to 3E is not the same as what a real company needs to produce a real, substantial product to support 4E. Paizo, Necro, GR, Goodman, etc., have all grown. The way we operate is different from pre-3E.
We arent talking 500 copies in a box in the trunk of your car for a con. We are talking having products validly in the distribution chain and ready to go in major retailers and game stores.
To hit a July release, we will have to have layout done and prepress pdf off to the printer by March/April. Thats your 3E lead time right there
Clark
Orcus
First Post
I too love the GameMastery modules. And 32 pages does work in limited fashion from trusted companies that otherwise have a good full production schedule. But that is hardly all that Paizo has going for it. It is a small facet of their whole business.
Early 3E, that was all anyone did just about.
The last thing 4E needs is a glut of bad 32 page modules like early 3E. If they give us the rules late, that is what we will be forced to do and what others will be able to do. They dont want to repeat that glut. They should want to have the rules to us in advance that actually let us create legitimate supporting products. And I have every belief that they want to do this. And that they will.
I have faith in the WotC guys and I know they support third party products.
Clark
Early 3E, that was all anyone did just about.
The last thing 4E needs is a glut of bad 32 page modules like early 3E. If they give us the rules late, that is what we will be forced to do and what others will be able to do. They dont want to repeat that glut. They should want to have the rules to us in advance that actually let us create legitimate supporting products. And I have every belief that they want to do this. And that they will.
I have faith in the WotC guys and I know they support third party products.
Clark
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