D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[Desdichado]

WayneLigon:

Sweet. You're a superhero.

 

[WayneLigon]

WayneLigon: Sweet. You're a superhero.

My voice can shatter cities! Yes!

 

[Agamon]

My voice can shatter cities! Yes!

Oh, so you're not that big teleporting dog thing?

 

[TarionzCousin]

Originally Posted by James Jacobs
They'll remain toothy little fathead dog-hating sadists.

Suddenly I'm wondering who exactly Mr. Jacobs is talking about, here.Suddenly I'm wondering who exactly Mr. Jacobs is talking about, here.

FWIW, I was writing gaming material on fruit roll-ups years before anyone else was doing it. In fact, I could have sued WotC because I had the entire Complete ___ series written on fruit long before they published it. They stole it all from me!

... if only they weren't so yummy.

 

[Sanguinemetaldawn]

I predict, without reservation, that 4E will be a fundamentally more successful business based on what I've seen.

This is something I have begun to really wonder about. I am convinced a lot of 4E PHs will be sold, sure, at least the 2008 iteration.

But beyond that I am wary of these predictions. One thing that seems not to taken into consideration are DMs specifically.

Without a DM to run a game, there is no game. And this change is especially sensitive to DMs for 2 reasons.

1) Investment of cash for materials
Pretty much without exception DMs spend the lion's share of money on the game, frequently spending more than everyone else in the group combined.
Who is most invested in 3E?

2) Investment of time in learning the rules
The DM is the final arbiter of the game, which means he/she is constantly called upon to make rules judgements. A large part of a DM's "legitimacy" is the ability to make good consistent rules calls, which means knowing the rules well. With the complexity of the 3E ruleset, most DMs spent a lot of time mastering these rules (one of the goals of 3E, right?).


These investments (time and money) are some of the most fundamental one can make. These investments are in disproportionate degree made by DMs, and without DMs you don't have a game.


And who gets angriest about change and loss of investment? Those who have invested the most.

I think there is a very real prospect of a DM revolt, boiling down to money and time. Sure, some will unthinkingly switch right over. I have seen it happen, and I am sure this time will be no exception. Some will thinkingly switch over. And some won't. The real question is what will the proportions be.

OK, so thats just consideration of switching from the old edition.


Now, switching to the new edition.

Eliminating many of the bad rules is definitely an improvement, and making them an official part of the rules means people effectively can't argue with it. Good enough so far.

But then we get to a new PH every year. And a new DMG. And MM. And who knows what else.

And it gets worse from there, with the monetizing of everything. The prospect of digital collectable minis is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I have minis I have had TWENTY years now in my closet, that I used recently. Anyone who thinks I am spending $10-$20 for a collectable digital mini has gone off the deep end.

Collectable minis are bad enough, requiring me to go to the secondary market to get what I want, and yeah, Reaper is getting even more of my business now. But virtual? No. Not unless its free.


I have never seen the level of purchasing fatigue we have now with 3/3.5 D&D. And now they are taking it to the next level. This feels like a breaking point to me. Of course, everyone has different tolerances, so there isn't going to be a single day where 500,000 gamers all say, "I am done". But, I have seen things die over a period of years before and there is no one single point where it happens, but one day you look up and suddenly wonder to yourself "Where the heck did everyone go?"

The sense I am getting is D&D has become fully corporate.
It is starting to look to me like "MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY"

That makes me feel insulted and exploited. But more than that, it tells me I will never have complete core set of rules, I will always have to buy more, and there will always be new rules to learn.

Thats where I say "I'm done".



I am just not seeing it succeed. I AM keenly interested in watching what happens. Personally, I will be probably getting the 4E PH, and seeing if there are any rules streamlining I can bring back into 3E, on those occasions I run it. I also may just get the SRD, and ignire 4E. Thats about it. But am a 1E/2E grognard, so maybe I am not representative.

I am trying to take all of the support for a 3.5 "legacy" offshoot with a giant grain of salt. I think the majority, perhaps a sizable majority, of the existing audience will convert within a year or two.

What I wonder is how many of these people are DMs.

The topic of DMs is one that seems to be overlooked a lot. When Gary talks about bringing new people in he talks about two things 1) getting complete newbies in to the hobby and 2) getting and training new DMs

Many people forget that second element. Gary is one of the few people who doesn't.

An edition change isn't the same as a whole different new game, but it does have many of the same problems.

And obviously, without 4E DMs, there is no 4E game.

And from what I have seen, DMs are usually the most passionate, or else why would they be willing to spend all the money, all the time mastering rules, and all the time prepping and running games?



Anyway, thats how I am seeing 4E right now.

 

[MerricB]

This is something I have begun to really wonder about. I am convinced a lot of 4E PHs will be sold, sure, at least the 2008 iteration.

But beyond that I am wary of these predictions. One thing that seems not to taken into consideration are DMs specifically.

Actually, I think you'll find that DMs have been specifically taken into account by the 4e design team. A lot of the important systems of 3e that need to be used by DMs (such as NPC and monster creation) were getting far too complicated and unforgiving. Ditto monster abilities. Have a look at some high-level adventures in Dungeon to see how stupidly long the statblocks could get!

Of course a new edition's success will depend on how it manages to convert the DMs over - but I suspect that making the game easier to run and prepare is one of the chief concerns of the 4e design team.

Some of the things you bring up (virtual minis) really won't affect the D&D experience for more than about 1% (if that) of the player base, so they can be discounted (and are probably based on faulty information at that!). I'm not expecting to run much 4e over the 'net - I'll just keep my regular 2 or 3 face-to-face campaigns.

Training new DMs? Well, there'll be a new D&D Basic set, which we can hope will help with that. (Despite Gary's protestations, Wizards has had a history of providing help for beginning DMs... just not of the sort that some grognards will accept as help.)

Personally, I felt D&D was a lot more "Money Money Money!" during the 2e years. This looks a lot more restrained.

Cheers!

 

[DaveMage]

Even though I'm staying 3.5, I agree with Merric. I think 4E *will* be easier to DM. The reduction in stat block complexity, and with that the potential simplification of monster design makes it very likely that the DM process will be streamlined. Also, for those that participate, it looks like the DI will also be DM friendly.

 

[ThirdWizard]

1) Investment of cash for materials

2) Investment of time in learning the rules

I think, personally, ease of DMing and prep time is much more important than either of those.

How many people have posted on these forums that 3e killed their desire to DM? Quite a few. If 4e makes DMing easier, then that could pull in DMs that 3e lost and make those going from 3e to 4e very happy to switch.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think, personally, ease of DMing and prep time is much more important than either of those.

How many people have posted on these forums that 3e killed their desire to DM? Quite a few. If 4e makes DMing easier, then that could pull in DMs that 3e lost and make those going from 3e to 4e very happy to switch.

I have to concur.

Even if I don't switch, I'll be taking a long, hard look at what 4e does re: prepwork.

RC

 

[Geron Raveneye]

The other side of the same coin (adventure creation) would be how well 4E lends itself to be improvised with on the spot. I'm not much for long preparing sessions where stats are concerned, and every time I sat down to stat out an important NPC in 3E I had to struggle not to fall asleep after 20 minutes...and these were mid-level characters. On the other hand, just shaking NPCs out of my sleeves usually had them at best at half their potential. And since stuff like skill levels are tied to character/class levels, it was a drag to simply pull them from thin air. In contrast, I used to run adventures for L5R from thin air whole-cloth and get entertaining 12-hour sessions. If 4E can do something like that as well, I'd view that as a definite improvement.