Pathfinder 2E Paizo's Stephen Radney-MacFarland Previews The Rogue Class For Pathfinder 2nd Edition!

We saw the fighter last week; today it's the turn of the rogue! Paizo's Stephen Radney-MacFarland gives the inside scoop on rogue features, and feats.

Rogue by Wayne Reynolds
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What do we know from this latest blog entry? Here's some class features:

• Sneak Attack (1st level) -- Rogues get Sneak Attack as their first class feature. Extra d6s of damage vs. flat-footed foes (such as flanked enemies, or those who fall victim to the Surprise Attack feature).
• Surprise Attack (1st level) -- "during the first round of combat, the rogue treats any creature that has not taken its turn yet as if it were flat-footed."
• Debilitating Strike (9th level) -- entangle or enfeeble targets in addition to damage. Higher levels add more conditions.
• Master Strike (19th level) -- ... culminating in Master Strike, which is an insta-kill at 19th level.
• More skill ranks, proficiencies, and skill feats than any other class. One skill feat per level rather than every other level.

And here's some class feats a rogue can take:

• Nimble Dodge -- +2 AC at a whim.
• Mobility (2nd level) -- move half speed and ignore reactions like attacks of opportunity.
• Reactive Pursuit (4th level) -- a sticky ability which allows the rogue to chase after foes who try to disengage.
• Dead Striker (4th level) -- treat frightened creatures as flat-footed.
• Gang Up (6th level) -- treat enemies within melee range of of your an ally as flat-footed.
• Twist the Knife (6th level) -- if you do sneak attack damage, do ongoing bleeding damage equal to half your sneak attack dice.
• Instant Opening (14th level) -- make a creature within 30' flat-footed until the end of your next turn.
• Cognitive Loophole -- ignore a mental effect for a round before it takes hold.
• Blank Slate (16th level) -- immune to detection, revelation, and scrying effects.

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[Schmoe]

The PF1 was reliant on Sneak Attack for damage, which was detrimental for rogues as there were so many monsters immune to sneak attack, critical hits, or even flanking. This made the rogue weak in comparison with a number of similar classes that had other tricks up their sleeve. Will the PF2 rogue have anything to address that?

I still play 3.5 and never quite made the switch to PF1, although I really like a lot of the things Paizo did with it. That being said, this is one of the number one pet peeves I have with both systems. There are so many blanket immunities that just completely nullify broad swathes of the game. Between immunity to criticals, concealment, and blindsight, DMs need to be really careful to make sure that rogues have an opportunity to feel useful.

My objections extend to things like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement, too. It just becomes too easy to trivialize whole classes of challenges at higher levels. But that's an argument for another day.

 

[theliel]

Gang attack looks mandatory and a tax.
It's also level 6 and is something rogues get for free in 5e.
I'm not sure how you make something better than "actually use your core feature" as an alternative

 

[Charlaquin]

Gang attack looks mandatory and a tax.
It's also level 6 and is something rogues get for free in 5e.
I'm not sure how you make something better than "actually use your core feature" as an alternative

Depends what other Feats are available to enable Sneak Attack. For example, the one that lets you SA frightened targets, I would easily see a build that utilizes that instead of positioning. And when you get that ability that lets you make a target flat-footed with an action, you can retrain whatever earlier Feat your Sntak Attack build relies on. Honestly, I don’t even see Gamg Up as that good. You can already Sneak Attack enemies by flanking them, a Feat just to save you the maybe 10 feet of movement it takes to get you on the other side of the enemy from your ally hardly seems worth it.

 

[theliel]

Depends what other Feats are available to enable Sneak Attack. For example, the one that lets you SA frightened targets, I would easily see a build that utilizes that instead of positioning. And when you get that ability that lets you make a target flat-footed with an action, you can retrain whatever earlier Feat your Sntak Attack build relies on. Honestly, I don’t even see Gamg Up as that good. You can already Sneak Attack enemies by flanking them, a Feat just to save you the maybe 10 feet of movement it takes to get you on the other side of the enemy from your ally hardly seems worth it.

This all depends on what kind of battles you are running. Hearing up allows you totag team with the classicon lines of enemies, or large or huge targets. Or people in a coffee point.
Given the amount of critters immune to fear or other status effects.

Even on a medium target that's a huge increase in times you're getting sneak attack.

 

[mellored]

Skill Feats every level is fine, but boring. I like Skill Monkeys, but the PF1 fighter proved that “the same Feats everyone else can take, but more of them” isn’t a particularly interesting defining characteristic for a class.

Hopefully "Skill feat" is more than just +3 to a skill.

Like hide in plain sight.
Or give you spider climb.
Or water breathing.

 

[Shasarak]

This all depends on what kind of battles you are running. Hearing up allows you totag team with the classicon lines of enemies, or large or huge targets. Or people in a coffee point.
Given the amount of critters immune to fear or other status effects.

I dont know if I have ever wanted to totag a classicon but now I know I need to coffee point someone!

 

[Charlaquin]

Hopefully "Skill feat" is more than just +3 to a skill.

Oh jeez, that’s a good point!

 

[theliel]

I dont know if I have ever wanted to totag a classicon but now I know I need to coffee point someone!

DYAC - Was supposed to be chokepoint.

Essentially there are many enemies who are immune to 'fear' but very few that are immune to 'engaged in melee by an ally'.

So you're going to have to compare Gang Up - the ability to sneak attack anyone who's in melee with your party - against all the other options at that level.

That's going to be very difficult to beat in terms of sheer utility.

And it's not like Paizo & Pathfinder don't have a colorful history with really terrible feat design.

 

[Razamis]

Not impressed with what I see here from the rogue.

Obviously the rogue needs to function well in combat, but I would have liked to see a lot more non-combat goodies. It seems overly focused on combat, and every class should be more than that, especially a rogue.

I also had hoped that they would do away with the unbelievably silly insta-kill capstones. That kind of stuff does not fit into a game that anyone wants to have fun with. Oh the big bad? insta-kill, good thing you had all that story and lead up. It makes the highest levels unplayable.

 

[Arakasius]

Everyone will have plenty of non combat with ancestry and skill feats they can’t use for enhancing combat as much, plus some general feats and background stuff. What they went over here is the class feats since every class seems to have gone to a build your own class type of system. The only thing they didn’t really talk about here is if there are any class feats for traps. So I wouldn’t worry too much that rogues can only do combat stuff, they can and will do plenty of non combat stuff. (they’re getting more skill feats than anyone too)