D&D 5E Paladin Smite Damage Cap

[Gladius Legis]

If you up the cap to 6d8 (for a 5th-level slot), and Smite only on one attack, the ONLY spellcaster possibly doing more single-target damage with a 5th-level slot spent on their action than the Paladin is an Evoker or Dragon Sorcerer with Scorching Ray.

Scorching Ray (5th), no Evoker/Dragon Sorcerer: 12d6 = 42
Paladin, one Smite, two attacks, longsword or rapier, 20 STR or DEX, Dueling style: 10d8 + 2x7 = 59
Scorching Ray (5th), Evoker or Dragon Sorcerer (gold or red), 20 INT or CHA: 12d6 + 6x5 = 72
Paladin, one Smite, two attacks, greatsword, 20 STR, Great Weapon Fighting Style, GW Master = 4d6 (reroll 1s, 2s) + 8d8 + 2x15 = 82.67
Scorching Ray (5th), Evoker 10/Dragon Sorc 6 (gold or red) build, 20 INT, 20 CHA = 12d6 + 6x10 = 102

There's also the logistical and tactical differences, namely that the Paladin's Smite is free guaranteed damage they can save until they actually hit (or even crit) with an attack, while OTOH not all of the damage from Scorching Ray is guaranteed, since the spell slot expenditure itself requires a series of spell attack rolls, any of which can miss.

ADD: Those are just maximum damage figures above. If you factor hit and miss chances vs. AC 20:

Paladin Lv. 17+, one Smite (hypothetical 5th level = 6d8), two attacks, longsword or rapier, 20 STR or DEX, Dueling:

2 * (.6 * (2d8+7))
+ (1 - .4^2) * 6d8 (chance of hitting at least once in the round and getting a Smite off)
= 41.88

Evoker or Dragon Sorcerer Lv. 17+, Scorching Ray 5th level, 20 INT or CHA:

6 * (.6 * (2d6+5))
= 43.2

So on average, the Evoker or Dragon Sorc w/ 5th-level Scorching Ray only barely outdamages a longsword or rapier Paladin using one (hypothetical) Smite.

****************************

ADD2: Let's return to reality, each one using a 4th-level slot, which is the Smite maximum, again vs. AC 20:

Paladin Lv. 17+, one 4th-level Smite, two attacks, longsword or rapier, 20 STR or DEX, Dueling:

2 * (.6 * (2d8+7))
+ (1 - .4^2) * 5d8
= 38.1


Evoker or Dragon Sorcerer Lv. 17+, Scorching Ray 4th level, 20 INT or CHA:

5 * (.6 * (2d6+5))
= 36

The Paladin pulls ahead per use of 4th-level slot on a single action.

 

[Fralex]

The extra damage is [2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st], to a maximum of 5d8.

This is how I parse it. The sentence is describing the nature of the extra damage the whole time, so the maximum refers to the total extra damage, not just the total extra extra damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

The cap is there to prevent Paladin 2/full caster X from using 6th-9th slots to Smite. I agree the cap should be raised to 6d8 to accommodate 5th-level slots, though.

And as for damage, it's 6d8 (7d8 vs. fiend) on top of an attack that already deals 2d8 + stat mod (w/ longsword). And can be doubled on a critical unlike ye old Cone of Cold or upcast Fireball. And keep in mind Paladins get two attacks per round by that point, dealing more damage. Even with a "conservative" spike using just one Smite that round you're looking at 10d8 + 2xstat minimum.

Ah, good point. I was not thinking of multiclass there.

Course, dipping into Paladin for only Divine Smite makes for a relatively weak PC overall. As a caster, they are a spell level behind the other PCs. As a Paladin, they miss out on all of the cool oath stuff. Having a mega-nova on criticals would hardly make the PC unbalanced, especially in those cases where the Paladin 2 / caster 14 uses an 8th level slot to do 2D6+5+2(magic weapon)+10D8+2D6+10D8 = 111 points against the Lich and the Lich only had 60 hit points remaining (which happens a lot, just ask the Bard player in our group who last week cast a magic missile spell at one foe with one hit point remaining and the very next round, did it again).

Players do not determine when they are going to get a critical. The dice do (although players can influence that a little with advantage). The odds of this becoming unbalancing seems small. Without the critical, this is a 59 points of damage attack. That's not too far of a stretch for an 8th level slot by a 16th level PC.

But I understand now why they made the rule. Thanks.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Paladin 2/Valor Bard 18 is quite strong. Two attacks/round, same as the full Paladin. Compared to a Valor Bard 20, they give up the very weak Bard capstone, and more substantially the ASI/feat and a 7th-level spell slot. I'd say the ability to Smite is a fair trade for those latter two. Yeah, they're a caster level behind, but I think that's fair as well.

Actually come to think of it, I can now see why they capped Divine Smite at a 4th-level slot. A Paladin 2/full caster X can wind up with one more 5th-level slot than a Paladin 20.

EDIT: I still think the cap should be 6d8, mind you. I just see why they'd cap it at 5d8 instead.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yeah, I very much think that the bonus damage is from the spell slot plus 1d8. It's unclear, to be sure, but it seems extremely weird to me that a Paladin can "waste" a 5th level slot...to do the same damage that a 4th level slot would do. The intent of the rule, IMHO, is to keep multiclass Paladins from "overly" benefiting from slots beyond the standard Paladin's loadout, without preventing the possibility of using them for Smiting. Thus it is 1d8+Xd8, where X is a maximum of 5, based on the spell slot consumed.

The other reading--saying that it is "1d8 + 1d8 per slot, to a total of 5d8"--can become really nonsensical if we take it to mean ALL bonus damage from the Smite. I mean, what do we do about the extra damage to undead? Does that just...evaporate if you happen to use (or, rather, "waste") a sufficiently-high level slot, or is the total damage not "the total extra damage," and just the total extra damage from spell slots? (The latter of which would seem to contradict the reason for capping it at 4 levels of spell...)

And if you really want to compare damage stuff here, I'd think you'd want to look at a Fighter using Action Surge. They may be limited to only once/twice an encounter per short rest, but a Paladin only gets two 5th level spells per day (at level 19), and only three 4th level spells; it's not like a Paladin can do this all day every day no sweat. With only two short rests per day (generally the expected minimum), a Fighter can field six Action Surges a day compared to the Paladin's single 5th-level-spell Smite (at level 17), and since the Fighter rolls twice as many attacks, there's a far higher chance of getting (some) crits.

 

[KarinsDad]

Paladin 2/Valor Bard 18 is quite strong. Two attacks/round, same as the full Paladin. Compared to a Valor Bard 20, they give up the very weak Bard capstone, and more substantially the ASI/feat and a 7th-level spell slot. I'd say the ability to Smite is a fair trade for those latter two. Yeah, they're a caster level behind, but I think that's fair as well.

Actually come to think of it, I can now see why they capped Divine Smite at a 4th-level slot. A Paladin 2/full caster X can wind up with one more 5th-level slot than a Paladin 20.

Very few players start at level 20.

At level 3, the player (typically) has Paladin 2 / Bard 1 (not even a Valor Bard yet).

At this point, he's effectively a bard with better armor, weapons, and hit points, but while other Bards have 2 second level spells and 4 first level spells per day, he has 2 first level spells. If he smites, he has even fewer first level spells.

My point is that in order to get to that wonderful level 20, most players have to play the PC (at some tables) for more than a year to get there (sometimes two years or more).

We have a Ranger 2 / Wizard 4 in our group. The Bard 6 is casting Haste and Fireball spells (Lore Bard Additional Magic Secrets in this case). The Wizard isn't.

Dipping two levels has some serious delays in abilities, especially for spell casters.

Being a spell caster 2 levels behind the rest of the spell casters in the party seriously limits options. And that's fine, but a Paladin 2 / Bard X with the possible exception of AC and a few smites per day is usually not more capable than a Bard X+2 except in direct melee (and the AC portion of that can be handled via a Blur spell for the tough fights).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Paladin 2/Valor Bard 18 is quite strong. Two attacks/round, same as the full Paladin. Compared to a Valor Bard 20, they give up the very weak Bard capstone, and more substantially the ASI/feat and a 7th-level spell slot. I'd say the ability to Smite is a fair trade for those latter two. Yeah, they're a caster level behind, but I think that's fair as well.

The ability to Bless and to wear Heavy Armor (with a fighting style to boot) is not to be scoffed at either. That's a very attractive combination.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I'd go Paladin 1/Bard 6 before taking the second Paladin level, then Bard the rest. Two levels behind in the first 7 or so is a big pain, I agree, but 1 level I can deal.

 

[CapnZapp]

The cap is there to prevent Paladin 2/full caster X from using 6th-9th slots to Smite. I agree the cap should be raised to 6d8 to accommodate 5th-level slots, though.

And as for damage, it's 6d8 (7d8 vs. fiend) on top of an attack that already deals 2d8 + stat mod (w/ longsword). And can be doubled on a critical unlike ye old Cone of Cold or upcast Fireball. And keep in mind Paladins get two attacks per round by that point, dealing more damage. Even with a "conservative" spike using just one Smite that round you're looking at 10d8 + 2xstat minimum.

I cannot fathom why such a character would waste her potential on a few extra d6s?

So, you can use your only level 9 slot to do 10d8 extra damage. Once. Against a single target. That you actually have to face in combat.

When you are a 18-level spellcaster.

That instead could cast Meteor Swarm or Wish or something.

Wut!? In what scenario did this come across as so overpowered it needed capping?

 

[DaveDash]

I do find it extremely odd that they capped it at all considering that with no cap, the damage would be 6D8 (7D8 with Improved Divine Smite) and 7D8 (8D8 with Improved Divine Smite) for undead or fiends. With one interpretation, the cap only drops is by a single D8 (two D8 with the other interpretation). Spell casters at those levels are doing a lot more damage than that with a 5th level spell slot, even with half damage.

Very strange.

The Paladin in my group has hit for about 12d6 + 34d8 + 45. The cap does not need to be raised.

You're forgetting about spells like Hold Person/Hold Monster. Tons of classes get them (including Paladins) and as your DC goes up it becomes very effective.

NPCs are humanoid (generally), just waiting to fail a high DC hold person, and then smited for double damage on all dice. If the Paladin could use higher level slots he could do 60d8 in radiant damage once per day. Using a great sword that's over 300 damage in one round.

I faced this a lot running an underdark campaign where most enemy creatures are Drow, thus humanoid.